Comments on: Sorry Gentoo, Maybe Later http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/ Linux. GNU. Freedom. Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:09:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7-RC1 hourly 1 By: mrmagoo http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-90932 mrmagoo Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:24:35 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-90932 dont read this post ^ umm, freebsd has the best ducumantation, freebsd wins dont read this post ^

umm, freebsd has the best ducumantation, freebsd wins

]]> By: mrmagoo http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-90931 mrmagoo Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:19:40 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-90931 lets see, first gentoo aint faster than anything else, in fact on my ancient p3 700 , its slower than freebsd or debian slightly,. umm, to ripff teh forum syntax. - cliffsnotes we cant read the manual we cant use fdsik we cant chroot a tarball . gintee must suxr the gods honest truth? umm gentoos portage will show you whats being updated and why, freebsd , shows some ports info, butt the world ? just read the csup info and make a guess or go read the source. debian? lol open aptitude on a small display and then dd you drive after 2 minutes yes we debian will protect you fom the world!! just type atitude upgrade!!! lets see, first gentoo aint faster than anything else, in fact on my ancient p3 700 , its slower than freebsd or debian slightly,.

umm, to ripff teh forum syntax.

- cliffsnotes
we cant read the manual we cant use fdsik we cant chroot a tarball . gintee must suxr

the gods honest truth?
umm gentoos portage will show you whats being updated and why, freebsd , shows some ports info, butt the world ? just read the csup info and make a guess or go read the source.

debian? lol open aptitude on a small display and then dd you drive after 2 minutes

yes we debian will protect you fom the world!! just type atitude upgrade!!!

]]> By: evilshenaniganz http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-84277 evilshenaniganz Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:59:55 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-84277 Interesting post. I always like reading people's first experiences with Gentoo. It took me five tries to get a functional Gentoo system back in '03. Looking back on it, I now know it was GRUB that was the culprit all along-- it can be quite an unforgiving pain in the ass. As far as your difficulties installing Gentoo, I can see two problems up front. The first being your choice of partitioning. The handbook recommends fdisk. I'm not sure where you're encountering these cylinder issues. I've used parted on RAID volumes where I've had to use GPT for the disk label and I've never had to specify cylinder boundries. Again, the handbook recommends fdisk. Betweent the two, I think fdisk's menu system is easier to understand and back away from if you make a mistake. After that you unpacked stage3 and the portage tree in RAM, something the handbook stipulates you should do to a mounted filesystem after you've partitioned and formatted your drives to your liking. At any rate, the point of the handbook is to be a guide for those who are new to Gentoo, much like yourself. I would be curious to see what kind of experience you'd have installing Debian from the expert command-line route. I would bet you'd have just as much difficulty. Gentoo is not an out-of-box distro. It never has been. If you want a Gentoo-esque out-of-box distro, I recommend Sabayon Linux. Since its inception it has been a source-based distribution. (Due to internal political strife, it's almost the only way to go at this point as the binary aspect of Gentoo has fallen by the wayside.) You're compiling software. That takes time. If you wanted a quick setup (implied by your observation of the amount of time spent trying to install Gentoo) then Gentoo is not for you. You are better off with a binary-based distribution. I wish you the best of luck and urge you to try Gentoo again at your leisure. And to quash any flame-baiting I'm running Gentoo in both domU and dom0 Xen environments right alongside Debain Etch, Lenny, and Sid environments-- some domUs and some dom0s. Each distro has its own strengths and weaknesses. Interesting post. I always like reading people’s first experiences with Gentoo. It took me five tries to get a functional Gentoo system back in ‘03. Looking back on it, I now know it was GRUB that was the culprit all along– it can be quite an unforgiving pain in the ass. As far as your difficulties installing Gentoo, I can see two problems up front. The first being your choice of partitioning. The handbook recommends fdisk. I’m not sure where you’re encountering these cylinder issues. I’ve used parted on RAID volumes where I’ve had to use GPT for the disk label and I’ve never had to specify cylinder boundries. Again, the handbook recommends fdisk. Betweent the two, I think fdisk’s menu system is easier to understand and back away from if you make a mistake. After that you unpacked stage3 and the portage tree in RAM, something the handbook stipulates you should do to a mounted filesystem after you’ve partitioned and formatted your drives to your liking. At any rate, the point of the handbook is to be a guide for those who are new to Gentoo, much like yourself. I would be curious to see what kind of experience you’d have installing Debian from the expert command-line route. I would bet you’d have just as much difficulty.

Gentoo is not an out-of-box distro. It never has been. If you want a Gentoo-esque out-of-box distro, I recommend Sabayon Linux. Since its inception it has been a source-based distribution. (Due to internal political strife, it’s almost the only way to go at this point as the binary aspect of Gentoo has fallen by the wayside.) You’re compiling software. That takes time. If you wanted a quick setup (implied by your observation of the amount of time spent trying to install Gentoo) then Gentoo is not for you. You are better off with a binary-based distribution. I wish you the best of luck and urge you to try Gentoo again at your leisure. And to quash any flame-baiting I’m running Gentoo in both domU and dom0 Xen environments right alongside Debain Etch, Lenny, and Sid environments– some domUs and some dom0s. Each distro has its own strengths and weaknesses.

]]> By: Rescue9 http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-50670 Rescue9 Wed, 09 May 2007 23:30:07 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-50670 I started with RH 5.2, then graduated Slackware After a few years with slack I tried Gentoo. It took me 7 tries to install it the way I wanted, but I finally got it running just right. However, it's getting to be a pain to manage now. My production server is a LAMP with IMAP/Wordpress/Gallery2/etc. Seems now every time I run an emerge system or emerge world somehting breaks. Being as how this is a server without monitor and kb, everytime something breaks I have to go lug the wife's monitor and kb into the other room to try and fix. I want something that just works. Ubuntu may not be it, but I'm about to find out. After more problems on my laptop I finally got peeved and wiped the whole gentoo install. Maybe all the issues I've had with gentoo will help me better navigate ubuntu. Maybe I'll be back... either way... it's all about me figureing out whats best for me. I started with RH 5.2, then graduated Slackware After a few years with slack I tried Gentoo. It took me 7 tries to install it the way I wanted, but I finally got it running just right. However, it’s getting to be a pain to manage now. My production server is a LAMP with IMAP/Wordpress/Gallery2/etc. Seems now every time I run an emerge system or emerge world somehting breaks. Being as how this is a server without monitor and kb, everytime something breaks I have to go lug the wife’s monitor and kb into the other room to try and fix. I want something that just works.

Ubuntu may not be it, but I’m about to find out. After more problems on my laptop I finally got peeved and wiped the whole gentoo install. Maybe all the issues I’ve had with gentoo will help me better navigate ubuntu. Maybe I’ll be back… either way… it’s all about me figureing out whats best for me.

]]> By: Zero Schezard http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-46387 Zero Schezard Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:58 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-46387 Ok, my 2cents: There is a LiveCD on Gentoo site that actually have an installer. I actually tried it, but no luck (I was on a dial-up, so no package download...) I agree with you that Gentoo isn't for first timers, but I don't agree with the Moderate Hackers opinion. Gentoo is, for me, a system that users who already know linux and know exactly what they want on Linux. For me, gentoo is stable and have exactly what I need. But, It tooks me 3 complete installs of the system to make it behave "just like I want". One tip (very useful): BEFORE installing any package, try emerge -pv , for it shows what USE flags the package supports, and what you have enabled. Ok, my 2cents:

There is a LiveCD on Gentoo site that actually have an installer. I actually tried it, but no luck (I was on a dial-up, so no package download…)

I agree with you that Gentoo isn’t for first timers, but I don’t agree with the Moderate Hackers opinion. Gentoo is, for me, a system that users who already know linux and know exactly what they want on Linux.

For me, gentoo is stable and have exactly what I need. But, It tooks me 3 complete installs of the system to make it behave “just like I want”.

One tip (very useful): BEFORE installing any package, try emerge -pv , for it shows what USE flags the package supports, and what you have enabled.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-38702 Aaron Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:34:14 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-38702 Stedevil- Good analogy, but not quite the same. First off, I was unaware of Sabayon, but upon learning of it later, I hear it's still very buggy, and not recommended for production, which is what we want. Second, referring to your analogy, sure, Gentoo is like the "build it yourself" model, the only problem is, I need a manual to make my own parts and then to take all the parts out of the box before I even start assembling it. In other words, I knew I was purchasing the "do it yourself" model, I just didn't realize that on a scale of 1 - 5, with 5 being most difficult, that it was a 10. I could handle 5. Stedevil- Good analogy, but not quite the same. First off, I was unaware of Sabayon, but upon learning of it later, I hear it’s still very buggy, and not recommended for production, which is what we want.

Second, referring to your analogy, sure, Gentoo is like the “build it yourself” model, the only problem is, I need a manual to make my own parts and then to take all the parts out of the box before I even start assembling it. In other words, I knew I was purchasing the “do it yourself” model, I just didn’t realize that on a scale of 1 - 5, with 5 being most difficult, that it was a 10. I could handle 5.

]]> By: Stedevil http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-38697 Stedevil Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:12:04 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-38697 <i>Chris- I just don’t understand why I need a manual to install an operating system. That is Gentoo’s fault. Making it much harder then it needs to be. Their flexibility makes installing the OS a pain.</i> What you are looking for is Sabayon. That is the Ubuntu version of Gentoo, ie easy out of the box. In essence what you have done is 1) gone to the toy shop 2) choose to "buy" the "build your self" model instead of the ready made 3) complain that the "build yourself" model needs you to actually build it Why didnt you just pick the other box of the shelf? That one that you dont need to build yourself? Chris- I just don’t understand why I need a manual to install an operating system. That is Gentoo’s fault. Making it much harder then it needs to be. Their flexibility makes installing the OS a pain.

What you are looking for is Sabayon. That is the Ubuntu version of Gentoo, ie easy out of the box.
In essence what you have done is
1) gone to the toy shop
2) choose to “buy” the “build your self” model instead of the ready made
3) complain that the “build yourself” model needs you to actually build it

Why didnt you just pick the other box of the shelf? That one that you dont need to build yourself?

]]> By: Judison http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-34150 Judison Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:23:43 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-34150 I use gentoo! \o/ what \o/ means? I never knew... Well... I use gentoo because I don't like ubuntu, I don't like fedora, etc.. etc... I don't like to waste my HD with tons of software that I don't need... Performance? well I have a notebook... Battery, CPU scaling... it makes diff when you have a just-what-you-need, no useless libs being loaded, etc... but I know it's not for everyone... I (mostly) never recommend it... (unless some geek friends, for others I just say "use ubuntu") And it's fun... it keeps me "aware" of what is going on in FS community. Don't get bugged with us... :D I use gentoo! \o/

what \o/ means? I never knew…

Well… I use gentoo because I don’t like ubuntu, I don’t like fedora, etc.. etc…

I don’t like to waste my HD with tons of software that I don’t need…

Performance? well I have a notebook… Battery, CPU scaling…
it makes diff when you have a just-what-you-need, no useless libs being loaded, etc…

but I know it’s not for everyone… I (mostly) never recommend it… (unless some geek friends, for others I just say “use ubuntu”)

And it’s fun… it keeps me “aware” of what is going on in FS community.

Don’t get bugged with us… :D

]]> By: dbr http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-34001 dbr Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:35:53 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-34001 The Gentoo LiveCD (The 700MB ISO download, not the minimal one) has a GUI installer - I've not personally used it (I have no interest or need to compile Gentoo from scratch, I'd prefer to use Ubuntu-server or Sabayon) - it seems like a decent installer, but from what I've read it can be slightly unreliable. Personally, I don't see the need for Gentoo, particularly as a desktop : the speed-gains from compiling-from-source (on your own machine) is neglible, epically given the amount of time it takes to compile it. Sure, for a server where you *only* need BIND9, or LighTTPd, and as little else as possible, Gentoo may make more sense. But, most modern servers can easily deal with a Debian install and a [DNS/Web/etc] Server (And wouldn't see much better performance, you'd be better optimizing the scripts running on the webserver, say), so the only place it'd make sense is on weaker hardware - But on weaker hardware, Gentoo would take a long time to compile.. Again, thats just my opinion (which is ignoring the fact people like to fiddle with Linux - Setting up Gentoo could be fun, and if you enjoy setting it up, and have the time - Then there's no reason not to) It's just peoeple using Gentoo for *no* reason (And then bragging about it, even in a "I use gentoo! \o/" way) has always bugged me *Shrugs* - Ben The Gentoo LiveCD (The 700MB ISO download, not the minimal one) has a GUI installer - I’ve not personally used it (I have no interest or need to compile Gentoo from scratch, I’d prefer to use Ubuntu-server or Sabayon) - it seems like a decent installer, but from what I’ve read it can be slightly unreliable.

Personally, I don’t see the need for Gentoo, particularly as a desktop : the speed-gains from compiling-from-source (on your own machine) is neglible, epically given the amount of time it takes to compile it.
Sure, for a server where you *only* need BIND9, or LighTTPd, and as little else as possible, Gentoo may make more sense. But, most modern servers can easily deal with a Debian install and a [DNS/Web/etc] Server (And wouldn’t see much better performance, you’d be better optimizing the scripts running on the webserver, say), so the only place it’d make sense is on weaker hardware - But on weaker hardware, Gentoo would take a long time to compile..

Again, thats just my opinion (which is ignoring the fact people like to fiddle with Linux - Setting up Gentoo could be fun, and if you enjoy setting it up, and have the time - Then there’s no reason not to) It’s just peoeple using Gentoo for *no* reason (And then bragging about it, even in a “I use gentoo! \o/” way) has always bugged me *Shrugs*
- Ben

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33991 Aaron Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:00:54 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33991 Harley Pig- Yes. I do think Gentoo is the one that should change. At least in respect to the installer. It's constructive criticism. I understand that Gentoo is one for getting your hands dirty, if you want, and I'm certainly not asking them to take that away. But what about those who want to try a source-based distribution, but not deal with the gnarly installer? My only complaint is the installer. I think it should change, or have the option to automate, for those who just want to get through it. I also think a manual of that size and nature should not be necessary to install Linux. My post, I hope, isn't negative, but just critical. I want to try Gentoo, but I don't want to deal with that installer. If I can't have both, then "[Gentoo] isn't at the point where I want to try it yet". Harley Pig- Yes. I do think Gentoo is the one that should change. At least in respect to the installer. It’s constructive criticism.

I understand that Gentoo is one for getting your hands dirty, if you want, and I’m certainly not asking them to take that away. But what about those who want to try a source-based distribution, but not deal with the gnarly installer?

My only complaint is the installer. I think it should change, or have the option to automate, for those who just want to get through it. I also think a manual of that size and nature should not be necessary to install Linux.

My post, I hope, isn’t negative, but just critical. I want to try Gentoo, but I don’t want to deal with that installer. If I can’t have both, then “[Gentoo] isn’t at the point where I want to try it yet”.

]]> By: Matt http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33990 Matt Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:58:08 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33990 <i>I want to get my hands dirty with it, and I will. I will get it installed, and will have it up and running. It’s just not at a point where I want to try it yet. That’s all.</i> My point is that it will never be at that point. It is what it is. The bit that you don't seem to like - ie. reading the documentation, and installing everything manually is the very essence of gentoo. It is never going to change. Maybe you should try one of the "pre-built" gentoo distros like: <a href="http://kororaa.org/static.php?page=about" rel="nofollow">kororaa</a> or <a href="http://vidalinux.com/" rel="nofollow">vidalinux</a>. I want to get my hands dirty with it, and I will. I will get it installed, and will have it up and running. It’s just not at a point where I want to try it yet. That’s all.

My point is that it will never be at that point. It is what it is. The bit that you don’t seem to like - ie. reading the documentation, and installing everything manually is the very essence of gentoo. It is never going to change.

Maybe you should try one of the “pre-built” gentoo distros like:

kororaa or vidalinux.

]]> By: Harley Pig http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33989 Harley Pig Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:55:21 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33989 Err ... I mean, recompile your installation at your liesure, or not. Err … I mean, recompile your installation at your liesure, or not.

]]> By: Harley Pig http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33988 Harley Pig Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:54:01 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33988 You said "[gentoo]'s just not at a point where I want to try it yet." That sticks out at me ... Gentoo is a mature distro. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or attempt to criticize or anything, but the tone of your post indicates you think Gentoo should be the one to change. That's going to stick in people's craw, even if they don't realize it. I might be wrong, but that's the tone I'm getting from your post. That said, there are people who agree with you, at least in some respects. There's the <a href="http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/installer/" rel="nofollow">Gentoo Installer Project</a> and the <a href="http://www.sabayonlinux.org" rel="nofollow">Sabayon</a> distro, which is based on Gentoo and is cross-compatible with it. Sabayon is still relatively new and rough around the edges, but it will install binary packages for you and you can compile that at your leisure, in the background. You said “[gentoo]’s just not at a point where I want to try it yet.”

That sticks out at me … Gentoo is a mature distro. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth or attempt to criticize or anything, but the tone of your post indicates you think Gentoo should be the one to change. That’s going to stick in people’s craw, even if they don’t realize it. I might be wrong, but that’s the tone I’m getting from your post.

That said, there are people who agree with you, at least in some respects. There’s the Gentoo Installer Project and the Sabayon distro, which is based on Gentoo and is cross-compatible with it. Sabayon is still relatively new and rough around the edges, but it will install binary packages for you and you can compile that at your leisure, in the background.

]]> By: Christer Edwards http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33978 Christer Edwards Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:45:56 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33978 I had the same issue when beandog convinced me to try it. Basically came down to not wanting to dedicate an entire day to the base installation and compilation of my machine. I'm sure its great for those people that want control over *everything* but I think that's just beyond me. I had the same issue when beandog convinced me to try it. Basically came down to not wanting to dedicate an entire day to the base installation and compilation of my machine.

I’m sure its great for those people that want control over *everything* but I think that’s just beyond me.

]]> By: Styles http://pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33977 Styles Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:44:10 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/02/23/sorry-gentoo-maybe-later/#comment-33977 I used to be a Gentoo nut, and even have a couple Gentoo boxes in a production environment. That being said you have to follow the Handbook step by step don't improvise unless you truly know what you are doing. I can part out a HD with fdisk in less that 2 mins (back in my day, when stage 1 installs were all the rage) And for me it took a good week and a half to get my first Gentoo install working. And boy it was much quicker and more responsive than any distro I have tried before and I was hooked. But I too made your guys mistake the first time I tried a Stage 1 install. And to be honest it was great fun to roll your own Linux install and I learned allot. And that knowledge I took from Gentoo and LFS (linux from scratch) has saved my butt and time more than once working with other distro's at my job (now Sr. Linux Sysadmin) It also taught me not to be afraid to customize Kernels to my hardware which I do now on a daily basis. So I can tune every amount of performance I can squeeze out of the hardware in use. The reason why I stick to Ubuntu and Debian based systems today is because I like working WITH my OS, and not working ON my OS. Time is money money is time. So with that being stated let me give you guys one word of advise; if you guys start doing more Gentoo or LFS installs. "DISTCC is your friend use it!" it will save you time in the long run. Cheers, Eric aka "Styles" #ubuntu-offtopic addict I used to be a Gentoo nut, and even have a couple Gentoo boxes in a production environment.

That being said you have to follow the Handbook step by step don’t improvise unless you truly know what you are doing.

I can part out a HD with fdisk in less that 2 mins (back in my day, when stage 1 installs were all the rage) And for me it took a good week and a half to get my first Gentoo install working. And boy it was much quicker and more responsive than any distro I have tried before and I was hooked. But I too made your guys mistake the first time I tried a Stage 1 install.

And to be honest it was great fun to roll your own Linux install and I learned allot. And that knowledge I took from Gentoo and LFS (linux from scratch) has saved my butt and time more than once working with other distro’s at my job (now Sr. Linux Sysadmin) It also taught me not to be afraid to customize Kernels to my hardware which I do now on a daily basis. So I can tune every amount of performance I can squeeze out of the hardware in use.

The reason why I stick to Ubuntu and Debian based systems today is because I like working WITH my OS, and not working ON my OS. Time is money money is time. So with that being stated let me give you guys one word of advise; if you guys start doing more Gentoo or LFS installs. “DISTCC is your friend use it!” it will save you time in the long run.

Cheers,
Eric aka “Styles” #ubuntu-offtopic addict

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