No. Not me personally. It’s the threat that we, as Linux users and developers, hear constantly. It’s on the forums, mailing lists and IRC. These ridiculous threats, that if something in the Linux operating system is not fixed or handled to their liking, they’re running back to Windows. To me, it seems to be getting worse and worse.
If I may, I’d like to discuss this for a second. First, I’d like to discuss what Microsoft is doing to the computing world. I give my respect where respect is due, and recognize that they have had great success, but wish to conjecture, that by making an operating system more user friendly, you reduce the mental challenging of a computer user. I’m not calling the user ‘dumb’, just not challenged.
Because, apparently, if there is no *.exe file to step them through an installation process, then it’s too hard to install software. Obviously, if there is no Start Menu, then the system isn’t user friendly. Of course, if there is no Control Panel, then the system can’t be maintained. And, by having to use the terminal from time to time, you have to be a programmer. So why bother? Obviously, Linux is just too hard of an operating system. Linux is demanding just too much from the user. It will never replace Windows on the desktop.
It’s almost as if, we as Linux developers, package managers and users even, are supposed to dumb down the operating system, so we can accommodate Windows users. Well, while I do agree with user friendly design, consistency and overall flow of an operating system, making the end experience much more pleasurable, end users don’t always know what they want in an OS, and having a parent company, such as Microsoft, let the users control the design of the operating system, isn’t necessarily a good idea.
So, as we see with each Windows release, computer users are challenged less and less to the point where using anything else, especially if it challenges you a bit mentally, is alien. Fortunately, there are people in this world who don’t mind being challenged mentally. As such, they make up great computer users and advocates. They also find, that, using Linux as an operating system isn’t necessarily hard, but just different.
Especially with Debian/Ubuntu. For example, you find that installing software is actually easier in 99% of cases than Windows. Start menu? Please. You see that you have panels that you can customize to your liking, and that menus exist all over the place, and ready at your command. You learn quickly where and how to control your operating system, and find, even, that there are just as many, if not, tons more, ways to keep it maintained. All of the sudden, you find that using Linux requires learning the terminal, but you find that you’re better off for it, and you didn’t have to learn how to program. So why bother? Because obviously, Linux is a solid operating system and platform. Linux isn’t demanding too much from the user, but just stretching your mental muscles. It should replace Windows on your desktop.
So, now we look back at the threat “If you don’t make Linux easier to use, I’m going back to Windows”. All I have to say, is if you’re not willing to take the time to learn something different (it’s called ‘work’), then don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
{ 105 } Comments
I will admit my bias up front. Selling Microsoft products pays my bills.
But what Microsoft set out to do was to make computers something that anyone can use. It seems to me that Linux users want the computer world to go back to the days when there was no internet. There was not a computer in almost every home in the US.
But it really comes down to any product becomes more user friendly as it matures. Think of how much easier it is to take care of a car today then it was 50 years ago. Microsoft is doing the same thing. If Linux wants to really compete with Microsoft, Linux needs to step up to the challange and do the same thing as well.
Jake- See? This is exactly what I’m talking about. With your comment “Linux users want the computer world to go back to the days when there was no internet” tells me that you don’t, and haven’t used Linux at all. You are the perfect example of my post. Thanks!
I always laugh when I hear people threaten to ‘go back to windows’. I don’t care one bit if you want to pout and go back. It’s not like you’re paying my bills so I have no vested interest other than at a volunteer level.
We do try to make it a very user friendly experience and I would argue that it *is* easier, just different.
Go back to windows.. you’ll be back. There was a reason you tried Linux in the first place and you’ll quickly be reminded of that.
I rarely if ever need to use the command line in Linux especially for Ubuntu (but I like to occasionally). I also occasionally need to use the command line in windows to do stuff like ipconfig when there are network problems.
I find that Ubuntu is making Linux easier and easier to use and I haven’t seen Windows get any easier to use. In fact I find it rather frustrating. At least when people say that “Linux is hard to use and they are going back to windows” often people listen and actually work on making Linux better. Microsoft doesnt’t care if you don’t use Windows.
Jake you must be a patient and smart person to be able to figrure out windows. I’m lazy and just want my computer to work. Ubuntu linux offers me that but Windows doesn’t.
Hey Aaron, thank you for this Post!
Greetings from Germany, Florian
It is unfortunate when a user resorts to threats rather than file a bug report/feature request or at least describes their issue intelligently. I still use windows alongside my Linux I usually recommend keeping a copy of windows around to people. After 20 years of os and software development it’s bound to have some good stuff and user familiarity with that way of doing things.
I love the fact that if hardware doesn’t work then it is Linux’s fault. That is another favorite of mine. If people want to go back to Windows, go for it, I could really care less anymore. I made the “intelligent” decision to use Linux, get to know Linux, and get to love it. I have been using Linux religiously since 1994.
OK, before I go to far off, quit blaming issues with hardware not working on Linux. Just like stupid ass Microsoft, hardware manufacturers don’t release the source of their drivers or the specs of their hardware so somebody can reverse engineer a driver. The only thing that Microsoft does better than Linux, gaming and viruses! You can’t disagree with that at all, if you do, then you are uneducated! Sorry if I hurt feelings with that one, and I will say it, Microsoft has dumbed down their products so much that infants and grandparents who have never seen a computer can use it, while the so-called power-users are left in the dark. A power user really isn’t a person that uses all aspects of Windows, sorry there isn’t shit to use! A power-user is really a person who is in tune with their hardware, overclocks it, and games. That is it. argggh, Windows users chap my ass. I am out!
Let me just say that I hate Windows. I’ve been using computers since 1982, and I’ve used every version since 2.11. They all suck.
But, as much as I love Linux, the Windows crowd does have a point. There have been several times when I could not install a program because of obscure documentation, missing files, etc. Linux needs to be usuable by both ends of the spectrum.
If we want Linux to take over the desktop, we have to court the lowest common denominator. They buy and use the greatest number of computers.
It comes down to the definition of “user friendly”. I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I honestly don’t find checkboxes, dialogue boxes, menus, etc., to be user friendly. In fact, I find it a ton harder to change a setting via those methods than it is to just change one line of a config file.
I will agree that it’s good that Linux users and devs have worked toward improving the systems that provide a more windows-like environment, since that provides an option for people to consider, and eases the transition from windows to linux, but I also think that it’s important for people to understand that, if they are going to use linux, they will need to be willing to use their brain.
No matter how far Linux comes toward being more user-friendly, Linux-users will still need to use their brains. The reason for this is that Linux users generally have to be able to support themselves. If you’re using Linux, unless you’re in a corporate environment, you really can’t just call up your local tech support for help whenever you have a problem. Instead, you will be working with volunteers who are not getting paid to help you. That’s a great thing, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for unpaid volunteers to expect a certain level of effort on the part of the person they are helping.
I also think it’s good for Linux users to be willing to use their brains because brains have started becoming unused in larger and larger portions of society. Our educational system is a failure. People don’t understand why brains are important. The zombies are getting tired of eating unused brains… er… uh…
Anyway, Linux isn’t for everyone now, and perhaps never will be, but that’s just the truth of life.
On the other hand, I’ve been using linux primarily for the last 4-5 years, and I have genuinely struggled returning to Windows machines on my new job; the amount of clutter, the disparate installs and crap I have to deal with is incredibly frustrating. Some things have uninstalls, some don’t , some applications require dozens of clicks, some two or three…if nothing else, simply the application management of Ubuntu/Debian system so thoroughly beats down Windows that I find it painful going back. OS X does this well as well, but I would never willingly subject myself to software installation on a Windows machine…
this and other reasons are why I stay with Linux.
Wes,
I’m going to play devils advocate here. I know there are programs that are a pain to install on linux. Is that Linux’s fault (or Ubuntu) or is that more the fault of the application? Certainly applications should install easily but who’s to blame if it doesn’t install nicely? Some of these applications get ported to windows and can even be more of a pain to setup (ie eclipse)
I don’t get the notion that Linux is actively less user-friendly than Windows. Personally, I find having to search for tons of .exe files across the internet and on CDs to install cool new junk an annoying and contrived process. I think I’ve only had to do that for 2 programs in Linux so far, neither of which I had to open up a shell for (gdebi ftw). And there may be some people that prefer typing crap in all the time (I’m okay with it as long as it’s not a daily routine and instructions are spelled out somewhere), but in my view when that’s necessary, it’s just a sign that something needs a little more work done on it, and making loud, whiny threats to “go back to Windows” won’t speed that up at all.
I’m not sure that Microsoft has dumbed down Windows significantly more than Linux (or at least Ubuntu). It seems more like people are so used to doing things a certain way, they’re either too afraid to (my dad -_-) or just can’t do things a different way, even if that way makes more sense.
While I don’t have much to add to this discussion I would like to write a little about this quote from the first reply:
I guess that depends on what you mean by “take care of your car”, if you’re just talking about driving around in it and perhaps clean it (or, maybe even change tires) at times, then you’re most likely correct. But if by “take care of” you mean things like changing broken parts or even to change the oil, that is not true. I am too young to have any experience, but I am not too young to listen to those older and wiser than me, and my father has repeatedly complained about how much easier it was to take care of cars earlier. Nowadays there are lots of electronic components, and even computers, in most, if not all, cars.
I am not saying that this is something only bad, but it’s certainly not making it easier to take care of your car. And also some things seems to be made to be difficult to do without special tools only available at certain places certified by the company. Perhaps required when cars get more sophisticated, but not making things easier
.
Back to the general issue: I’m not sure if I want Linux to be too widely adopted. I do think it’s possible for both those who don’t, as one of the earlier commenters wrote, want to use their brains and those who do to use Linux. But if too much effort is spent on making things “easier” I’m afraid things might get less effective. An example (not a very good one, but I hope you get my point): It might be very easy to change the font-size or make the text centered by clicking on an icon, but compare that to just pressing a few keys on your keyboard (which at least to me is much faster, as the keyboard is just in front of me, but my mouse is a bit away, and you have to move the mouse-pointer to the correct place) and perhaps you begin to realize that easy is not the same thing as effective.
If Linux, or individual programs for that matter, focus too much on making things easy it might be negative. As always there is a need to find the delicate balance between to opposite alternatives, let’s hope that the future brings a good balance and not one of the bad alternatives. (Either an OS that only geeks can use, and only then with a lot of effort, or an OS that everyone can use, but which is of use to no one.)
I use Linux as my productive (and entertainment) OS since early 2005 and I know the “I’m going back” sentiment. Been there, done that and came back for more.
A lot has changed since my first attempts at using Linux, my adopting it and now. And the biggest change happened in usability. Everything is easier to configure and you can do most of it graphically.
And that’s just the reason, why more and more people are even considering to use Linux. The new system is alien enough, but new users at least try to adapt to the new system.
So there is no need to further hinder their progress by forcing them to use something even more alien than Linux: the command line.
So while I don’t like these kind of threats either, it is also important to remember, that we want more users to adopt Linux. And that means honoring new user’s motivation to switch and give them a system that doesn’t feel to far away from what they already know, so that they can explore it step by step. This requires good default choices and graphical configuration utilities for the higher level thing. And in the end, when the users want to change lower level things, even the command line won’t scare them.
Hear hear. I’ve had people (trying to set up a server, no less) tell me that “if you [Linux devs] want people to use Linux, then you should make it easier to use”.
Well, frankly, I don’t want “people” to use GNU/Linux, or FreeBSD, or anything else for that matter. I want to keep using them myself, and I want people who care about them to keep using them, but if all you’re going to do is whinge about how much easier such-and-such is under Windows (hint: no it isn’t), then you can sod off back to Windows.
Well again all these comments turned into a flamewar “Is Windows or Linux better?”. I dont want to say anything to that…
More interesting on this post are 2 things, usability and the “attitude” of a lot of linux users.
I am using both, but I like free software and use it also on windows.
But I really hate the attitude of some people, that sounds to me like “everything is cool, linux rules, properitary is shit and everything should stay as it is”.
Ok, it might be a good system, but I like the attitude, that everything has to change an move on, and that you can ALWAYS make something better.
Linux is in some areas less easy (and in some more). But to say “hey people just have to learn computer stuff. they have to adapt to the OS not vice versa” is stupid.
I/We like to work with Computers, we are interested in how the work and what can be done. But many people have no clue and no talent for technical stuff and dont want to either.
Imagine you would have to know about business economics to do everyday actions like buying a pizza. I HATE business stuff, my brain switches off on that, its BORING.
So why bother people who want to communicate or work on some text with details they dont want to know?
FOSS was always about choice for me. There are always different way to do things. I think that every GUI should have hidden expert options like VLC or should be editable through a text file, but should also have a (seperate?) n00b GUI that even my Mother can use. And damn, she raises her hand off the mouse to push it somewhere and click, and she needs my help to check mails with thunderbird.
Long story short:
Make an OS usable for people who have NO clue about computers and dont want to and make them suitable for geeks like me
just my humble opinion…
Ben- This certainly has not turned into a flame war. I find that this discussion has been rather enlightening, however.
I do agree with the general attitude of “X is better than Y” fanboyisms. That attitude, hopefully, has not been reflected in this post. The point of the post, was to show, that if you’re not willing to work on your operating system, regardless of what it is, then keep your idle threats to yourself.
Well I agree, that these “threads” of changing back are totally silly.
On the usability thing, maybe I misunderstood your posting a bit. If you meant that usability means not that the OS looks/feels the same as Windows, I agree.
But the console is not really a good alternative. Changing a config file might be good if you know what you’re doing, because you can type very fast and have more freedom. But a normal user maybe wont even type with 10 fingers (means, very slow) and does NOT know what he is doing. Some config files are rather complex and you need to read documentation. If a user wants to change something fast, to do his actual work, he does not want to study documentation.
So I think usability on Linux should be created by eliminating the need for the user to learn “background” things just to do his actual work.
He/she/it might need to adapt to the new look and feel, so its not like windows, but they should be able to do what they actually want, surfing, mailing, chatting etc, without the need to open a black window and type in commands they have to look up.
I agree. People want Linux to be Windows. I think this is a great thing to read as well- Linux is not Windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm). I really think that in many ways Ubuntu is easy to learn than Windows, just people are so set on making Linux in general an imitation of Windows, but somehow better. Apt-get and its frontends (like Synaptic) are much better than Windows installers, yet some people consider apt-get and Synaptic too hard and want installers. Windows is taking away control- at the expense of what Microsoft calls user-friendly (though I personally think Vista and Office 2007 are harder to use).
@Sokraates:
I don’t see how you can say that something even more alien than Linux is the command line. Linux IS the command line, and the GUI is just fluff. Yes, it’s nice to have the GUI and to have a GUI tool for things, but I do not believe that you can say that you are a knowledgeable Linux user unless you can use the command line, at least to some degree. I don’t mean one has to be a guru or anything, but knowing how to navigate around the system and do fairly basic tasks in the command line is essential. If you say “I’m a big Linux user, but I have never used the command line and I don’t want to”, then you’re not really a Linux user at all.
So, honestly, I don’t think Linux is for everyone and maybe it won’t ever be. But if the sacrifice is that we must forfeit wide marketplace acceptance in order to keep the OS we use intelligent and useful as it was always intended to be, then I’m willing to accept that. I don’t think stripping Linux of true functionality just so the lowest common denominator can sit down at it and use it right away is a sensible thing.
Meh. Stuff them. If they are the kind of people who can’t spend a short amount of time helping us to help them then “let” them go back to Windows.
They’ll either stay there and be happy (good luck to them), or switch later when the time is right for them.
You can’t force someone to use Free software, you can just show them what the alternatives to proprietary software are and let them make their own mind up. If you try too hard you can easily end up making people feel bad, and that’s not what we need.
If they thinly veil threats of leaving to windows then I have to wonder if I really want their contribution in the first place.
I suspect that this may sound arrogant, elitist or even egotistical to some, but that’s not my intention. I am pragmatic, and whilst we could all spend days trying to convince one person to “stick with us”, most of us have better things to do, such as report and fix bugs, write documentation, and in other ways help those who will help themselves.
(just my 2p).
I Dual Boot Win XP Pro and Ubuntu (set up as a web server to test apps) and still find interruptions to my work flow on both.
IF Linux developers want people to use their software they should look as to why MS and Apple have so many users. Adapt and grow.
DOS was around back in the day, but not a lot of people I know used computers back then. Switch to now where there are easy to use GUIs, and most people I know have a computer and the internet.
I think usability is key here. Options are good. Software should be easy to use for those who need to do simple things while allowing for advance users to get what they need done. And this idea where everyone has to be a CS major to run a computer is completely wrong if you want your software adopted.
The whole package manager thing doesn’t work well when you have dial up (I know I am not the only one) and the the modem doesn’t work in Linux. If I could download a single installer file from a site I would have twice the programs I do now since I have to use the Edgy DVD.
All in all I want people to learn how to use a program from the program itself (documentation and usability), and have fun with their computers.
Easier is not bad if your program is still powerful. I say, we should show the world what these machines can do.
One of my coworkers recently gave me the “I’m going back to Windows”, but it wasn’t a braining problem, he was having issues with a Linksys wifi card on his laptop. NDISWrapper couldn’t even get it to work, and we tried a few other workarounds. Nothing. He was happy with the look and feel of Ubuntu, how easy it was to use, and how he could configure it to look and act however he wanted, rather than being locked into the Windows desktop. After re-installing XP, he said “I know it’s not Linux’s fault, but if they can get the driver problem fixed, then I’ll switch back in a heartbeat. I really like Ubuntu, it just doesn’t work for me right now.” So, I’m hoping for his sake that the Feisty release will have better pcmcia wifi support.
As for me, all my home computers are happily running Ubuntu, and all my work computers are running various versions of Windows (even the servers). Kinda backwards, huh?
I never succeed to install and configure a “Linux”.
I never succeed to find a real confirmed “Linux” user around.
I never succeed to find answers to my questions on fora (about installation).
If you do not know what ip, dns and these ppp* things are, you are just a dead man on Linux.
As an hobbyist programmer, I prefer to spend my limited spare time with Python, Lua or Haskell on my Win platform than reading documentation on how to put a wifi to work.
“Linux”, a very appealing system, too bad it is just so complicate to set up.
jmf- You don’t need to configure Linux like in days of old UNIX times. Linux is easy to install and ‘configure’. For looking for answers to you questions, just go to ubuntuforums.org. You’re bound to get answers to any question that you ask. And, you don’t need to know ip, dns and ppp* things on Linux, but, using your brain, and figuring them out is what this post is about. You won’t be sunk in the water if you don’t know them, but it should wouldn’t hurt to learn. Definitely if your a programmer. It sounds like you have the skill, you just lack the motivation.
I know very well, that the GUI is not Linux but the system beneath, that can be run from the command line.
But for Windows users a new GUI is already strange enough. Take that away from them and they are bound to run back to Windows screaming. Heck, I wouldn’t use Linux if I had to do most of my work from the command line.
No one wants Linux to sacrifice it’s individuality. Quite on the contrary: Linux should develop it’s strengths to the fullest. Linux is all about choice and customizability. So it’s easy to hide complexity from new users using simple GUIs while experienced user are free to use the command line, because it’s still there.
And as I have already said: once users grow acustomed to Linux, they will eventually learn to use the command line to manage low level things. And if not, than they will hopefully find some friendly user who will walk them through the changes they want to make.
Well I for one am sticking with Linux. I have a triple boot PC (Ubuntu, Windows XP and Vista) and the one I spend most of my computing time in… Ubuntu.
I am an IT professional and at work I have to use Microsoft products all the time, but I have 4 VMware Linux distro’s on the go. I even managed to persuade my boss to do a SMEServer install for a local charity even though a rival IT firm said that Linux was a no-no. Do you know what? The people who log into that server don’t even notice it is not windows based, all they know is that they can log in, get their docs, surf the web and read their mail. And bar the small inconvenience of a 40GB hdd dying in the server the server has been up for the best part of 6 months with no crashes, or reboots. I wish I could say the same for the myriad of Windows 2000 and 2003 servers we look after.
I’m afraid it is you who is going to be hit on the door on the way out if you go into any home/organization and explain to Mom or the secretary that she is going to need to read up on the terminal.
its sad when new users run into legitimate bugs and its one that will stump most of the people in the forums and irc.
and if they have a problem which stops them from installing the distro most often they will tell other not to try linux, advice good or bad has a way of staying in the mind for a long time.
people not using their brains have no excuse though, learning is a major part of life.
I would not want to use Windows again but I can’t blame those who do. A computer is a tool and you can’t expect all users to be toolmakers.
How do you define a ‘good’ tool? In terms of simplicity, reliability and usability. Most people I know would rather pay for something that is simple to use than spend their precious time working out how to use it.
I am lucky that I have an understanding family - and another pc they can use (running xp).
Hey, I’ve been thinking since reading this… are there any examples out there right now of the command-line actually aiding the user in understanding it? This is just a feeling I’m getting and I don’t know for sure, but it seems like the GUI is a fix for people that don’t want to memorize all these different text commands. Do you think that maybe it’s the CLI that should be improved upon to make it easier for new users, instead of relying solely on a GUI for user-friendliness?
While I agree with much of what you say, I should point out that you sound just a little hostile. As a recent convert (who has literally no technical knowledge) I feel a bit put off with your somewhat aggressive language.
Tyler- Thanks for your feedback! However, what’s aggressive about telling lazy computer users to step up to the plate and start learning stuff? What’s aggressive about saying that Microsoft is dumbing down their own operating system, and as such, hindering their own user base? I guess I just have no patience for the idle.
Maurice- I’m not expecting everyone to create their own tools, I’m just expecting that everyone learn the tools.
Rob J. Caskey- I’m not the one going to them. Your mom and secretary are coming to me. I didn’t enter their place of residence, they entered mine.
Sokraates- I’m not asking anyone to live in the terminal. Use the GUI. That’s fine. Just spend the time to get to know your system. That’s all I ask.
GoatTuber- I understand that some hardware issues keep people from using Linux. If you’ve done all you can do, and your hands are still tied, then you’re miles ahead of those I am ranting about.
Derek- I’m not going to go into the reasons why Microsoft has so many users. Suffice it to say, it was not operating system design, or Apple would be the market leader.
arbulus- Well said!
You mentioned “challenge” three or four times in that post. I’m don’t think anybody is interested in having a challenging time using their computer. Perhaps I have misinterpreted your use of the word.
Aaron…i am a full linux user (feisty beta), has windows just on virtual box. I think that if we want to fix bug number 1, we have to leave the idea that an operative system is something that should challenge user’s mind. Imho this attitude ( very generalized in the hardcore) is an advantage we are giving to the company that has the major portion of the market.
Hello! I dont think anyone will read this but anyway…
The main reason linux wont get to the desktop is not because start menu, exe and control panel
but its because BUGS, alpha software and the eternal beta state
since linux is not made for the general user, there is always a work around for the geeks and hackers
Im using ubuntu for some months
after years waiting to have a linux that I was able to use in my computer
Im getting tired of so many bugs and alpha software
I love linux, I love free software
I support linux, I spread,
I have linux ubuntu working on most of the machines that I control
But it sad to see that it wont make to the masses
by the time it get stable enought, google will release it almost web based OS
when this happends, free sofware movement will be gone
because it wont be about software anymore, it will be about services
ozp- alpha software? Ubuntu? Linux in general? What? Are you kidding? You must be.
Listen, in all honesty, Linux is more stable than any operating system I have used. BeOS, Solaris UNIX, Windows, MacOS, etc. I’m not going to be ignorant, however. The Linux kernel has bugs, but please. Alpha software is definitely what it is not.
Heh. I won’t even bother commenting on the rest of your comment. You’ve already shown me your lack of judgment, and that’s pretty much sealed it.
A link that deserves to be plastered as many places as possible:
Why Linux is not windows:
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
OZP: Try something other than ubuntu. It’s supposed to be bleeding edge. You might have better luck with PC LinuxOS.
Maybe not what you had in mind, but if you really want to learn it, Slackware is pretty much the same as it was ten years ago. It’s very simple and minimalistic. There are not a lot distribution specific tools complicating things. It’s pretty much just you and bash. Anything you pick up using it can therefore be taken to other distros. If you want to learn the shell, a desktop oriented distro is probobly the worst place to do it simply because it’s got all the extra crap running by default to make the desktop work right.
It took me several tries on different years to get Linux up and running on a computer. I first tried around ‘99-’00 with Turbo Linux, then later with Mandrake (installing Quake 3 from a CD brought the system down permanently somehow, then SUSE (which worked fine), and now I’m on to Ubuntu.
I simply don’t understand why anyone would expect Linux to be Windows with improvements, but many people do. The concepts boggles my mind. When I saw my first Mac OS (back in ‘94), I knew it wasn’t Windows.
There are valid complaints (e.g. Linux has games, but a lot of the mainstream ones are missing -or- “Photoshop runs slowly in WINE.”) Installing and using a distribution is not one of them, unless you’re a first time user installing Gentoo. Likewise, what do you need the terminal for? I use the terminal for almost everything I do, but the needs most people have can be met with a package installer, built-in menus, etc. There’s a GUI for almost everything they’d seem to need.
@Aaron: I didn’t mean to imply that you would rather see Linux users working with the terminal.
But the fact remains, that the more people switch to Linux, the less technically savvy the average user becomes. So you can’t expect any Linux user to become acquainted to the command line over time.
People who switch themselves will maybe learn about the CLI. But others who have the switch made for them (e.g. my parents) won’t ever bother to learn the details of Linux. They didn’t even bother to understand Windows.
Does Linux work for these people? Of course! All they need is an office suite, a browser and e-mail. Have security updates done automatically and your set. They may still need help from time to time, but less so than with windows (I’m speaking from my own experience).
Less technology ignorant people will even post to forums. And even though I detest having people cry wolf (or “i’m going back to windows” in this case), the community’s first inclination should be to breath deeply and then try to help them. After all, they did their best (which doesn’t mean much these days) to use Linux and become part of our community. If they can’t be helped, noone can blame it on an unfriendly community and as Linux improves, they’ll be back. As Christer Edwards said: there was a reason why they tried to switch in the first place.
Ben- I’m not suggesting that the operating system be a puzzle that they try to figure out step by step. What I am suggesting is that an operating system encourage growth and learning. I propose that Linux is doing just that, while Windows is doing it less and less. As such, when you come to the Windows camp, be prepared to exercise a little brain power and work. The operating system isn’t going to baby you through everything as Windows does.
Good post. It gets frustrating sometimes when you read post after post of people giving up on something that you completed successfully (like switching to Linux). But it’s important to realize that the average user doesn’t want to be mentally challenged. They want an appliance. An email reading, web surfing, word processing, pr0n viewing appliance. You wouldn’t want to be mentally challenged by your TV or toaster, would you?
I hear this and I know they haven’t really tried to use Linux. When I first wanted to look at Linux, I set as my goal to try and use it as my desktop for a reasonable period of time (a week or so, not ten minutes). I believe that was back in 2000 and I’m still using it. I connect to z/OS and z/VM sessions with x3270 easier than the Windows people do. I write memo and spreadsheets and share them with others with no problem
I’ve found *very* few things I could not do, and those I couldn’t, Ive found ways around. One, I later found out, has the exact same problem under Windows! BTW, I’m not some kid just trying the new thing out, I’m in my early fifties, and have worked with computers for over thirty years!
My wife and son use Windows (my wife is too set in her ways - is running Win 98 still) and my son has games that run under Windows, although he’s been getting interested in Linux too. At least he is open to using it.
When it comes to linux I am a noob. No, worse than that, a sub-noob. However, I know enough to say it is not hard to use “just different”. If you want to limit yourself to just using a mouse and right-clicking your way through life, stick with Windows and keep your “anti-virus” software up to date. I”ll keep XP around for gaming though. LOTRO FTW!?
So here we go again with “blame the user”. I use both Linux and Windows and wouldn’t impose Linux on anyone who didn’t explicitly request it.
The fact is that MS listens to their customers and their OS upgrades reflect this. We shouldn’t blame users for wanting an easier computer — it’s just evolution. Should cars go back to using cranks to start the engine or do most of us like our electronic ignition? Should we go back to the days before anti-lock brakes and power steering?
Computers being easier to use means people use their computers for specific tasks. Microsoft gets this, as do a lot of Linux companies now (SUSE, Ubuntu, etc). It seems some of the Linux users do not.
Kuriharu,
I agree with you I don’t force linux on anyone. My parents and most of my siblings use Windows. (One brother uses linux)
When users have issues the Linux community should listen, try to help and try to make the linux system better. (It doesn’t have to be exactly like windows but it should be easy to use).
However, I’m curious where you get the idea that microsoft listens to its customers? In what areas do you think they do? Are there things in Vista that work much better than Windows XP (I haven’t used Vista). I’ve seen steady improvements in Ubuntu, but I haven’t really seen many in Windows.
I find windows XP a pain to setup and with 5 different versions of Vista I don’t see how that makes things easier for the customers. I wish Windows was easier to use and worked better so that people could have a better time using their computers. However, I think this will only really happen when Microsoft faces real competition on the desktop (most likely from Mac and Ubuntu).
There are a lot of alpha software around.
How many software do you use that is below 0.5?
Beryl is 0.2
So many famous software are hitting the 1.0 release
mplayer did not release 1.0 yet
kernel is stable, the system behind the GUI is stable
The GUI is unstable, the software over the GUI is very unstable
I say this from my own experience
ozp- So, you’re saying that unless software hits a 1.0 release, it’s alpha? What version number does it have to be for a beta release? I hate to say it, but your discernment is way off.
Firefox is at a version 2 release, yet, they’ve release a version 3 alpha. Also, Beryl, mplayer and the ‘GUI’, as you refer to it, are all at stable releases, according to their respective documentations. Both cases showing that software is deemed stable by the developers, and not the version numbers.
I think alot of those people that “threaten to go back to Windows” with a list of spurious reasons why Linux is so difficult are really MS astroturfers trying to deter potential newbies from trying out Linux.
Like a lot of people I use Win XP at work and Ubuntu Linux at home, Ubuntu is easier to use than Windows. I remember back in the days when I used Red Hat 6 a good few years ago and it was a fight to make your system work, the ability to use the command line and to edit config files was essential but those days are long gone. Ubuntu just works and is easier than Windows.
Aaron, no offense, but you’re saying Linux is more stable than Solaris, and that simply isn’t true. And you are also forgetting the *BSD’s when claiming that Linux is the most stable.
Me- no offense, but in my experience, Linux has been more stable.
I had a large Sun Microsystems Enterprise 1 UltraSparc server running Solaris 9 for about 3 months, using CDE as my desktop manager. I couldn’t keep it up for more than a week, due to constant crashing. Eventually, I wiped it clean, put Gentoo on it, unsuccessfully, then decided to sell it. It may have been hardware related, but I’m not sure.
Also, I ran FreeBSD 4.11 on an x86 custom built box, that is now running Ubuntu. It too had many issues. Constant crashing, and multiple bugs in software packages, that were supposedly stable.
So, in my experience, which is all I can speak from, Linux has been more stable and reliable.
En mi opinión, linux es un sistema operativo sólido, fácil de usar y con más prestaciones que otros sistemas operativos basados en código cerrado y propietario,
Jonathan’s translation, for those who don’t speak Spanish:
“In my opinion, Linux is a solid operating system, easy to use and with more benefits than other operating systems based on closed and proprietary code.”
Try using an nvidia 8800 series card on xp 64 or god forbid vista and tell me how easy windows is to use. The linux drivers for these cards came out on the day the card released and have worked flawlessly for me.
My experience running windows on a high end machine (dual opteron with 8G of ram) is that windows is a royal pain in the neck to setup and keep running.
Linux is definitely different to run but I definitely find it easier and at least it works. Stuff like kubuntu makes installing software much easier then windows and for updating there is no comparison. Kubuntu can update all the software on the system installed via the package system which is usually close to everything and windows can only update windows not any app that you install. I have been using linux for about 12 years now and I definitely find it easier to use then windows.
I take issue with most of the traditional viewpoints cocerning Linux and Windows usability and “zealotry”. Some things are better then others, for instance, typing “apt-get update && apt-get upgrade” is better than running windows updates, then pulling a list of installed software from add/remove programs (you’ll note that the contents of this menu cannot be highlighted/marked, and therefore cannot be copied and pasted) finding the installed version of each program and comparing it to the current version from the vendor’s website.
I love to hear people threaten to go back to windows. I leave them with two statements. “Linux isn’t for lazy or dumb people so you have a nice trip back” then I smile and say…Oh good…another defenseless computer to hack. What was your IP address again?
helios
Let me say upfront that while I personally prefer Linux, I do use Windows and have no problems with it.
I think that overall, the problem is that you are dealing not with stupid people but people that do not have much understanding of how computers work at all and have no interest in learning about computers. They simply view them as something to send emails from, surf the web and play games on.
This is the real reason that there are some many Windows computers hosed with viruses and spyware.
If Linux was preinstalled on computers, there would not be any harder for those users than windows and many would not even know that there was difference.
That said, it is always worthwhile learning how to use any system that you run.
I use linux ubuntu and Linux is ready. Now the big giant software companys need to port their app like Autocad, Microstation ,Adobe photoshop and other big apps that companys use to make the switch. Until those apps are around businesses wont make the switch.
I appreciate the post, too. I’m not sure what anyone is actually talking about when they complain that you have to know the command line, or know how to compile, or be a programmer to use Linux. I’ve been using Linux now for about three years. I started with Linspire and moved on to Ubuntu. Yes, there is a learning curve, but there is one with everything new in life that you try. yes, I use the command line on occasion, but only if I have to do something that a “normal” user would call a tech/geek for, like getting Ndiswrapper working, for example. The same as in Windows. My wife uses Ubuntu on her system as well, and she has no idea how to use the command line. My kids also do for their games. None of us knows how to compile anything, and my programming skills are limited to writing a very simple script now and again.
What I’m trying to say is that we use Linux for almost everything we do as a family on the computers we have. It is just as easy as Windows if not more so, and it’s not the fault of the programmers if the proprietary companies won’t release code for hardware drivers or compile high end games for Linux. Most “normal” computer users just use it for internet browsing, email, wors processing, etc. anyway. All of which is easily handled by any modern Linux Distro and none of which requires any knowledge of a command line or any other “Geek” wisdom.
The truth is that anyone who returns to Windows from Linux either hasn’t tried the right distro, or it wasn’t set up properly for them, because there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Desktop Linux itself and a lot right with it.
Ok a few things that your uneducated pc user doesn’t know:
1.Microsoft’s Windows OS is not built as good as Linux.(I call the whole GNU/Linux thing just Linux so deal with it)
2.Microsoft’s way of doing business and how it treats others is wrong and that’s final.
3.Linux has some very easy distros out there. They are just different NOT harder.
Aaron, your article is worded better than my response to that threat. I just tell them to piss off and go back then.
I just want to say to the guy who thinks Cars are easier to maintain today than 50 years ago… You obviously have never worked on 1957 Chevy… Cars couldn’t have been simpler than they were then… I was born in 1970, I learned cars in the driveway, and computers in the closet… MS takes away your options, your freedom of choice and you power in exchange for user friendliness… It is NOT a sign of a “mature” application, it is a sign of a “one size fits all” mentality… Linux has 10 ways, more or less, to do everything… So each users can get used to what works best for them… MS can’t say that about Windows… Linux users and developers refuse to give up that freedom, those choices and that power to anyone … Like they said in the movie “You’ve Got Mail”… people buy complex and crazy coffee drinks so they can feel they have made decisions when they are basically going through life day by day with the rest of the world dictated to them… We don’t want to be dictated too, it is that simple…
People may see my post and notice I am using Windows… this is true, as I am stuck with what my company bought me while at work, but I run my own company on the side, trying ot make it larger, and we use Linux OS on servers and laptops… Also, I can’t get Dell Japan to provide me with a Linux Laptop like are doing in Dell France, so I just have to wait…
BUT, I have an old Compaq Presario which came with Windows 98 SE SR2, and the 98 OS got worse with each Windows update… I tried ME in it, but that never quite worked right… I sidelined it for a few years, but dug it out 2 years ago and installed Linux on it… I have had ZERO problems running Linux, even newer versions and EVEN my Elementary School son enjoyed working with it…
Peace,
I have converted some friends and family from Windows to GNU/Linux and I find that this leads to a definite stress reduction for them. They no longer worry about viruses, trojans, worms or spyware. No more ‘disk defrags’ or ‘disk cleanups’ to worry about.
As a result they have a more enjoyable and useful computing experience. And once all the applications that they require are installed, there is not much else to do on the support side due to the stability of the GNU/Linux environment.
Aaron: I understand that Linux has been more stable in your experience. In fact, I am a Linux user myself. But the Solaris servers that I have worked with can take 3 years of up time (and probably more), something that I have never seen Linux do. As for FreeBSD, I cannot offer a plausible explanation for the crashes you experienced, but as far as I have seen, if you want a solid server and don’t like Sun (or IBM for that matter — AIX anyone?), then really some kind of BSD is the way to go. Just my $0.02
I like linux. I like it alot. I don’t hate Windows, I hate the MS license. My hard drive failed. I had to re-install, it required a call to activate. How lame is that? I wouldn’t say Linux is harder…not today at least. It wasn’t so easy 5 years ago though. Its pretty user friendly. Even distros like Gentoo which take forever to build is not that hard if you read the manual. Personally, I don’t care to do that much work to install an OS. I love Ubuntu but don’t care to install all the extras…thankfully there are other distros to choose from. That is the beauty of Linux isn’t it? Choice? Linux Mint works for me pretty well out of the box…nothing else I really need to install. Installation is a breeze, and everything but my wireless worked out of the box but that is to be expected with the Broadcom model I have. In any case, Ubuntu has a strong support community and it was pretty simple to get it up and running. This could happen in any OS. I know I’ve spent countless hours getting some hardware to work in Win or Mac. I don’t see the argument about exe, synaptic seems to take care of business pretty simple. So why do I boot into Windows? Well, there are some programs I just can’t run in Linux namely the digital audio workstations. Yes, there are nice DAWs like Rosegarden, its just a beast to get working with audio along with VST. Where would I like to see Linux going? I don’t know if it is Linux per se as it is vendor suport for Linux. I can get drivers for things like my Netgear 101 file server, I would convert my whole family to Linux.
“The whole package manager thing doesn’t work well when you have dial up (I know I am not the only one) and the the modem doesn’t work in Linux. If I could download a single installer file from a site I would have twice the programs I do now since I have to use the Edgy DVD.”
@Derek
You’re fundamental problem here is that the modem doesn’t work. But even here Linux gives you a work around, but it involves the (dreaded by some) command line. If you choose the package(s) you want to install with Synaptic, under the “file” menu, Synaptic offers to provide a script for using wget to download the needed .deb files. Here you might have several files instead of one to download from another computer (or the same one dual booted) and transfer over, but it shouldn’t be much more difficult than downloading a single installer file. Since wget is available on MS Windows you could even use that for your download. Personally, I always found double clicking on a .exe file for installation rather nerve racking since I never knew what it was going to do when I clicked!
It depends on the what one sees as user friendliness, ease of use etc. Linux has made a lot of inroads in these areas in the past few years but it still has to do more if the Windows and MAC crowd is it’s target. If somebody started out with Linux then that person would most likely have problems using Windows and the other way around - it’s all about habit. I see that on myself if I haven’t used Windows for some weeks and then suddenly have to deal with the illogical XP start menu layout. Well Vista improved in that area. I almost accused MS of copying KBFX in some ways in it’s Vista start menu design. Look at the way the new Vista start menu works and you will understand what I mean.
Linux is on the right track and Ubuntu is taking it’s user’s experience to places that no other Linux distro has ever before. Things just work!
Yes I am presently using openSuse 10.2 (a very powerful, stable and user friendly OS btw) as my main OS but I also have Vista, XP (for educational reasons) and KUbuntu Feisty installed so I can make comparisons.
With a a bit more multimedia support and a little more support from hardware vendors Linux will be ready to replace Windows on the desktop.
Whoever wants to go back to Windows can go. I will be so happy to earn a few bucks cleaning up their virus infected OSs.
PS: My wife, who only knew Windows before uses Linux without a problem and she didn’t spend hours learning like some claim.
Gruß
Bobby
There are a few problems with the logic, but I see that several posters and the article writer have already reconciled this.
Some people do NOT want to work on their machines; others can push themselves to work, as long as its with familiar problems and solutions. You can’t ask these people to up and LEARN a new operating system…even if you claim that they will have an ‘easier’ time in the future.
Some of you guys realize this, and then you say, “Oh, I don’t want any lazy users.” Right here, you kill linux’s chance of every have more than a marginal share of things. The perception is that linux is work. The perception is that linux is supported by rabid fanboys. This article and its posters don’t do much to dispel the argument.
I am more enticed to work with a problem (so I’m not the absolutely lazy user), but ONLY IF IT IS FAMILIAR. I’ve worked with mandriva, one of the older editions of Ubuntu (which I want to try the feisty beta for some of the things they are doing), and now I’m with gentoo. I still find something wrong with each of these fundamentally.
They want me to learn a new system by throwing me into it. I first learned how to work ndiswrapper with Mandriva, because I had discovered that the software couldn’t automatically detect my linksys wireless adaptor. It was almost NOT worth it to learn, because it wasn’t easy. There was little documentation, despite the fact that there was A LOT of documentation.
That’s the problem. You see, there are hundreds of forums (for each distro, even!), and there are hundreds of guides, and there are even IRC channels, but these all have a gap and disconnect with users. They don’t convey information well, or even worse, advice doesn’t w