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	<title>Comments on: Google Is Now Officially Evil</title>
	<atom:link href="http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/</link>
	<description>Linux.  GNU.  Freedom.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Aaron Toponce &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Apology Issued To Google And My Readers</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83717</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Toponce &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Apology Issued To Google And My Readers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83717</guid>
		<description>[...] want to publicly apologize to my readers and to Google for my post regarding Google being evil. It was shortsighted and rash without level-headed thinking and clarity. I was misinformed, but had [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] want to publicly apologize to my readers and to Google for my post regarding Google being evil. It was shortsighted and rash without level-headed thinking and clarity. I was misinformed, but had [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Schroeder</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83348</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Schroeder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83348</guid>
		<description>Seriously dude... STFU!

Google is doing a lot of good things like employing Sean Egan. Look at how much work on the Jabber specification he has done since moving to google. Jabber would not be what it is now without google's work and here you are critisizing? Take a hike.

Oh, and if you want to reply to this rant, that really is my email and website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously dude&#8230; STFU!</p>
<p>Google is doing a lot of good things like employing Sean Egan. Look at how much work on the Jabber specification he has done since moving to google. Jabber would not be what it is now without google&#8217;s work and here you are critisizing? Take a hike.</p>
<p>Oh, and if you want to reply to this rant, that really is my email and website.</p>
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		<title>By: Francesco</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83260</link>
		<dc:creator>Francesco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83260</guid>
		<description>@Aaron: your point has no sense since Google still supports XMPP in Google Talk. It would be different if Google Talk service had switched to AIM protocol, but since it still supports XMPP as the primary protocol I really can't see where the problem is... maybe it's just ideological/political...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aaron: your point has no sense since Google still supports XMPP in Google Talk. It would be different if Google Talk service had switched to AIM protocol, but since it still supports XMPP as the primary protocol I really can&#8217;t see where the problem is&#8230; maybe it&#8217;s just ideological/political&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfger</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83204</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83204</guid>
		<description>"The point of the post, is Google supported an open standard ... Then, they throw in a proprietary protocol in the mix. This means that they do *not* support open standards"

Aaron, I disagree with your interpretation of it. Supporting a proprietary protocol alongside an open protocol does not negate the fact that the open protocol is supported. Google is not switching their own IM client to a proprietary protocol, they are still using XMPP. They are simply trying to play nice with others. I honestly can't see why that should make anybody in the FOSS community upset.

Let's look at this from another angle: Google is &lt;i&gt;actively turning people into XMPP users&lt;/i&gt;! Yes, that's right. I seriously doubt anybody with an existing Gmail or GoogleTalk account is going to stop using that simply because AIM is now supported, but having AIM supported &lt;b&gt;will&lt;/b&gt; be an added inducement to those who don't have a Gmail or GoogleTalk account to get one. So Joe is in the market for a new e-mail address, and he uses AIM. Gmail suddenly stands out as a particularly good choice, as it will allow him to keep in touch with his AIM buddies easier, even from work where IM clients are not allow but webmail access is. Joe creates a Gmail account &lt;i&gt;and is now an XMPP user&lt;/i&gt;! If any of his friends also have Gmail, he will, unwittingly even, start chatting with an open protocol. Not that Joe cares whether the protocol is open or not...

p.s. Anybody have any idea why OpenID is refusing to authenticate me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The point of the post, is Google supported an open standard &#8230; Then, they throw in a proprietary protocol in the mix. This means that they do *not* support open standards&#8221;</p>
<p>Aaron, I disagree with your interpretation of it. Supporting a proprietary protocol alongside an open protocol does not negate the fact that the open protocol is supported. Google is not switching their own IM client to a proprietary protocol, they are still using XMPP. They are simply trying to play nice with others. I honestly can&#8217;t see why that should make anybody in the FOSS community upset.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s look at this from another angle: Google is <i>actively turning people into XMPP users</i>! Yes, that&#8217;s right. I seriously doubt anybody with an existing Gmail or GoogleTalk account is going to stop using that simply because AIM is now supported, but having AIM supported <b>will</b> be an added inducement to those who don&#8217;t have a Gmail or GoogleTalk account to get one. So Joe is in the market for a new e-mail address, and he uses AIM. Gmail suddenly stands out as a particularly good choice, as it will allow him to keep in touch with his AIM buddies easier, even from work where IM clients are not allow but webmail access is. Joe creates a Gmail account <i>and is now an XMPP user</i>! If any of his friends also have Gmail, he will, unwittingly even, start chatting with an open protocol. Not that Joe cares whether the protocol is open or not&#8230;</p>
<p>p.s. Anybody have any idea why OpenID is refusing to authenticate me?</p>
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		<title>By: daniels</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83177</link>
		<dc:creator>daniels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83177</guid>
		<description>Why do you care? GMail is a closed-source app, with no semblance of openness.  So, what does it matter that a closed-source app now speaks another proprietary protocol?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you care? GMail is a closed-source app, with no semblance of openness.  So, what does it matter that a closed-source app now speaks another proprietary protocol?</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83171</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 20:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83171</guid>
		<description>I think a few of you are missing the point.  The point isn't judging a company based on whether or not it supports proprietary foo.  As Wolfger mentioned, that would put everything in that category.

The point of the post, is Google supported an open standard, namely XMPP/Jabber.  Even on their official Google Talk blog, they mention that they support open standards.  Then, they throw in a proprietary protocol in the mix.  This means that they do *not* support open standards, and are blatantly lying to the public.  Is lying a good attribute or bad?

To further the mess, by supporting a proprietary protocol in an open one, you have effectively closed your protocol.  It doesn't matter if it's AIM, MSN, Yahoo! or ICQ, what does matter, is the hybrid mix of open with closed software.

I guess my point of this post is, Google has shown that they are more interested in their wants and desires than the progress of Free Software.  Any company that blatantly opposes Free Software is evil in my eye.  I see Google hindering the progress of XMPP/Jabber, which is very unfortunate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a few of you are missing the point.  The point isn&#8217;t judging a company based on whether or not it supports proprietary foo.  As Wolfger mentioned, that would put everything in that category.</p>
<p>The point of the post, is Google supported an open standard, namely XMPP/Jabber.  Even on their official Google Talk blog, they mention that they support open standards.  Then, they throw in a proprietary protocol in the mix.  This means that they do *not* support open standards, and are blatantly lying to the public.  Is lying a good attribute or bad?</p>
<p>To further the mess, by supporting a proprietary protocol in an open one, you have effectively closed your protocol.  It doesn&#8217;t matter if it&#8217;s AIM, MSN, Yahoo! or ICQ, what does matter, is the hybrid mix of open with closed software.</p>
<p>I guess my point of this post is, Google has shown that they are more interested in their wants and desires than the progress of Free Software.  Any company that blatantly opposes Free Software is evil in my eye.  I see Google hindering the progress of XMPP/Jabber, which is very unfortunate.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83163</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 20:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83163</guid>
		<description>"Google Is Now Officially Evil"

Talk about an inflammatory title...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Google Is Now Officially Evil&#8221;</p>
<p>Talk about an inflammatory title&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Christer Edwards</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83142</link>
		<dc:creator>Christer Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83142</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I don't think I agree with you on this one either.  This makes pretty much any application that doesn't *strictly* support open protocols and formats evil as well.. which is just about the entire OS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I don&#8217;t think I agree with you on this one either.  This makes pretty much any application that doesn&#8217;t *strictly* support open protocols and formats evil as well.. which is just about the entire OS.</p>
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		<title>By: sharms</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83133</link>
		<dc:creator>sharms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83133</guid>
		<description>@Sander:  Your historical data arguement is not correct.  Allowing OO to open word documents means that people interacting with you have less incentive to switch to other formats.  AIM protocol is so popular because it *historically* has a large install base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sander:  Your historical data arguement is not correct.  Allowing OO to open word documents means that people interacting with you have less incentive to switch to other formats.  AIM protocol is so popular because it *historically* has a large install base.</p>
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		<title>By: Frederik</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83095</link>
		<dc:creator>Frederik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83095</guid>
		<description>Hm, how do you deal with XMPP and SIMLPE without using a multiprotocoll client? Even the "Open Standards" compete in this field, with SIP adding IM capabilities and XMPP adding VoIP capabilities. So what's the deal? Using one application per protocol? I think Pidgin got it right when they switched from protocol icons to generic ones. People don't think in protocols, they think in people they want to chat with.

Nevertheless, I think it's good when companies use XMPP/Jabber, even if they don't sell it as Jabber. We don't need the "Firefox of IM", we need the "E-Mail of IM": No matter where you have an account, no matter what software you use, you can just get in contact with anybody.

In Germany, one of the biggest freemail providers added an IM service (in fact, three providers belonging to the same company). They don't sell it as "We now support XMPP", they sell it as "Hey, come and use our new sexy multi-protocoll IM client" (based on the fact that Jabber itself is multiprotocoll via transports). But I can use my Jabber account to contact these people. And I can tell people, "You already have an email address from them, just grab Pidgin (or their client if you want) and we can start chatting".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hm, how do you deal with XMPP and SIMLPE without using a multiprotocoll client? Even the &#8220;Open Standards&#8221; compete in this field, with SIP adding IM capabilities and XMPP adding VoIP capabilities. So what&#8217;s the deal? Using one application per protocol? I think Pidgin got it right when they switched from protocol icons to generic ones. People don&#8217;t think in protocols, they think in people they want to chat with.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I think it&#8217;s good when companies use XMPP/Jabber, even if they don&#8217;t sell it as Jabber. We don&#8217;t need the &#8220;Firefox of IM&#8221;, we need the &#8220;E-Mail of IM&#8221;: No matter where you have an account, no matter what software you use, you can just get in contact with anybody.</p>
<p>In Germany, one of the biggest freemail providers added an IM service (in fact, three providers belonging to the same company). They don&#8217;t sell it as &#8220;We now support XMPP&#8221;, they sell it as &#8220;Hey, come and use our new sexy multi-protocoll IM client&#8221; (based on the fact that Jabber itself is multiprotocoll via transports). But I can use my Jabber account to contact these people. And I can tell people, &#8220;You already have an email address from them, just grab Pidgin (or their client if you want) and we can start chatting&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerome Gotangco</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83094</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerome Gotangco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83094</guid>
		<description>Google's dominance and our dependence with their online applications and services are good enough reasons why the GNU Affero GPL is very important - in fact could be more important than the GPL itself in the coming years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Google&#8217;s dominance and our dependence with their online applications and services are good enough reasons why the GNU Affero GPL is very important - in fact could be more important than the GPL itself in the coming years.</p>
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		<title>By: Dread Knight</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83071</link>
		<dc:creator>Dread Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 08:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83071</guid>
		<description>Nice OS script (running Kubuntu 7.10 actually). Anyway, the guys who have posted before me are pretty much right, sorry to say but you don't get the overall picture. Don't get sad, continue to use Google :) Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice OS script (running Kubuntu 7.10 actually). Anyway, the guys who have posted before me are pretty much right, sorry to say but you don&#8217;t get the overall picture. Don&#8217;t get sad, continue to use Google <img src='http://pthree.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Dread Knight</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83069</link>
		<dc:creator>Dread Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 08:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83069</guid>
		<description>About the "Firefox of instant messenging", check this out:
http://instantbird.com/

Anyway, don't fully agree with you because: you won't be able to convert/impose all your contacts to move to a new IM network. This is ONLY going to work if the new IM network is a viable alternative and it won't break the established network as in you still get to chat with all your contacts, just like before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the &#8220;Firefox of instant messenging&#8221;, check this out:<br />
<a href="http://instantbird.com/" rel="nofollow">http://instantbird.com/</a></p>
<p>Anyway, don&#8217;t fully agree with you because: you won&#8217;t be able to convert/impose all your contacts to move to a new IM network. This is ONLY going to work if the new IM network is a viable alternative and it won&#8217;t break the established network as in you still get to chat with all your contacts, just like before.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Farrington</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83050</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Farrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83050</guid>
		<description>I think the analysis and concluding done by yourself and the cited article is short-sighted at best, and decisively ignorant at worst.

The fact of the matter is Google has a requirement to service its users as best it can. Being that far many more users - most notably in the Western world - use AIM than do any XMPP service, adding support for such protocols in Gmail is a step in the right direction. The average user doesn't care if the AIM protocol is closed: they care about communicating with their friends and family.

Furthermore, the assumption that supporting multiple-&lt;em&gt;anything&lt;/em&gt; is bad is silly among all degrees. Is pidgin evil for supporting multiple protocols through libpurple? Is Gstreamer evil for having plugins that support closed, copyrighted formats? Is anything that could potentially interoperate with any non-open service or software evil? Of course not! None of those things make any company or service or software intrinsically evil.

I suggest you take a step back and re-evaluate what matters here: the best way to service end users; not the best way to stir the political pot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the analysis and concluding done by yourself and the cited article is short-sighted at best, and decisively ignorant at worst.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is Google has a requirement to service its users as best it can. Being that far many more users - most notably in the Western world - use AIM than do any XMPP service, adding support for such protocols in Gmail is a step in the right direction. The average user doesn&#8217;t care if the AIM protocol is closed: they care about communicating with their friends and family.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the assumption that supporting multiple-<em>anything</em> is bad is silly among all degrees. Is pidgin evil for supporting multiple protocols through libpurple? Is Gstreamer evil for having plugins that support closed, copyrighted formats? Is anything that could potentially interoperate with any non-open service or software evil? Of course not! None of those things make any company or service or software intrinsically evil.</p>
<p>I suggest you take a step back and re-evaluate what matters here: the best way to service end users; not the best way to stir the political pot.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfger</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83044</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pthree.org/2007/12/08/google-is-now-officially-evil/#comment-83044</guid>
		<description>Tried to leave lengthy opposing viewpoint, but OpenID is borked and swallowed the post whole. Too far past my bedtime to retype all that, so I'll just sum up:
FOSS == sharing == supporting multiple protocols
Proprietary == greedy == "my way or the highway"

If multi-protocol offerings are evil, then OpenOffice.org is evil. So is Gimp. So is Amarok. So is..... the list includes damn near every piece of software on my Kubuntu box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tried to leave lengthy opposing viewpoint, but OpenID is borked and swallowed the post whole. Too far past my bedtime to retype all that, so I&#8217;ll just sum up:<br />
FOSS == sharing == supporting multiple protocols<br />
Proprietary == greedy == &#8220;my way or the highway&#8221;</p>
<p>If multi-protocol offerings are evil, then OpenOffice.org is evil. So is Gimp. So is Amarok. So is&#8230;.. the list includes damn near every piece of software on my Kubuntu box.</p>
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