Comments on: Debian- What It Means To Me http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/ Linux. GNU. Freedom. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:59:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4-alpha By: Patrick http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109183 Patrick Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:08:25 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109183 So now you either want to prove your ignorance to the real job of package maintainers or you just want to flame (ok flaming is actually all this post and most of the comments is about, but well, you can think of what I mean). So what about bug triaging, analysing crash reports, analyse and setup steps to get upgrades and transitions done? Adapting software to distribution-specific needs? (e.g. setting up alternatives) Testing? Reporting Bugs upstream? Suggesting fixes to upstream? Are this things that you think can be done by a robot? So now you either want to prove your ignorance to the real job of package maintainers or you just want to flame (ok flaming is actually all this post and most of the comments is about, but well, you can think of what I mean).

So what about bug triaging, analysing crash reports, analyse and setup steps to get upgrades and transitions done? Adapting software to distribution-specific needs? (e.g. setting up alternatives) Testing? Reporting Bugs upstream? Suggesting fixes to upstream? Are this things that you think can be done by a robot?

]]> By: Patrick http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109182 Patrick Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:01:05 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109182 "RPM does have pre scripts, and they work rather well. What you’re describing about the upgrade scripts is exactly how it should behave." Really? How - for example - do you handle something like diversions with this approach? "RPM unpacks what’s needed, runs the rest of the pre scripts, then installs, then runs any post scripts that may be present." The "whats needed" part is confusing. Does that mean you can mark certain files as not to be installed before certain parts of the preinst script(s) ran? If so, this would be interesting, but a rather strange workaround to the problem that is to be solved. “RPM does have pre scripts, and they work rather well. What you’re describing about the upgrade scripts is exactly how it should behave.”

Really? How – for example – do you handle something like diversions with this approach?

“RPM unpacks what’s needed, runs the rest of the pre scripts, then installs, then runs any post scripts that may be present.”

The “whats needed” part is confusing. Does that mean you can mark certain files as not to be installed before certain parts of the preinst script(s) ran? If so, this would be interesting, but a rather strange workaround to the problem that is to be solved.

]]> By: Patrick http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109181 Patrick Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:52:45 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109181 Uh? I can say a lot of bad things about aptitude (e.g. that it is horrible slow) but argueing that the dependency resolver is 'utterly broken' appears to be just untrue. In my personal experience (when administrating some couples of Debian systems) my feeling is that the dependency resolver of aptitude works in a more consistent and reliable way then apt-get ever did. I always smile about the moments where it makes a suggestion (not always the one I want, yeah), where apt-get would have failed and asked me to enter a solution on my own. But I must indeed confess that I did not really use apt-get for at least 6 months, so I cannot really made statements about the eventual progress apt-get made. Regardless of that I don't see how this is a bad example. It is relative new, incorporates a clear enhancement to the previous approaches to fix the system (the fact that I don't need to it manually) and it is an example that in this area something new *has* emerged (contrary to what Aaron said) Uh? I can say a lot of bad things about aptitude (e.g. that it is horrible slow) but argueing that the dependency resolver is ‘utterly broken’ appears to be just untrue.
In my personal experience (when administrating some couples of Debian systems) my feeling is that the dependency resolver of aptitude works in a more consistent and reliable way then apt-get ever did. I always smile about the moments where it makes a suggestion (not always the one I want, yeah), where apt-get would have failed and asked me to enter a solution on my own.
But I must indeed confess that I did not really use apt-get for at least 6 months, so I cannot really made statements about the eventual progress apt-get made.

Regardless of that I don’t see how this is a bad example. It is relative new, incorporates a clear enhancement to the previous approaches to fix the system (the fact that I don’t need to it manually) and it is an example that in this area something new *has* emerged (contrary to what Aaron said)

]]> By: Patrick http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109180 Patrick Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:44:23 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109180 "Aptitude is merely a front end to apt-get." You don't actually believe what you say, do you? "It’s nothing really innovative." Oho. But Launchpad is? You know that you run out of good examples, if you argue against what makes your own examples innovative? “Aptitude is merely a front end to apt-get.”

You don’t actually believe what you say, do you?

“It’s nothing really innovative.”

Oho. But Launchpad is? You know that you run out of good examples, if you argue against what makes your own examples innovative?

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109169 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:42:33 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109169 Yeah, I've read that. It's been ridiculed fairly hard on a number of topics: 1. He's pulling from Git logs, which is only a recent tracker of the kernel development. 2. He's only using vanity email addresses, which until recently, Canonical and Ubuntu didn't hand out. 3. Classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. 4. Ubuntu has giving back to the Linux community 100 times more than any kernel developer has done. If it weren't for Ubuntu, Linux on the desktop would not be where it is today. Yeah, I’ve read that. It’s been ridiculed fairly hard on a number of topics:

1. He’s pulling from Git logs, which is only a recent tracker of the kernel development.
2. He’s only using vanity email addresses, which until recently, Canonical and Ubuntu didn’t hand out.
3. Classic example of the pot calling the kettle black.
4. Ubuntu has giving back to the Linux community 100 times more than any kernel developer has done. If it weren’t for Ubuntu, Linux on the desktop would not be where it is today.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109168 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:38:20 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109168 Bazaar fills needs that other VCS software doesn't give. Isn't this the whole point of Free Software? If it doesn't have Feature X, then either patch it, fork it, or create anew. Also, graphics and overall look and feel can be called innovation. Novell artwork in the SUSE distributions is beautiful, and frankly, no distro even comes close. And yes, Canonical was "slammed" for not doing kernel development by a Novell employee who also had done little kernel development. Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? Further, where are the "Debian Developer" contributions to the kernel? Oh, not as much as expected, eh? Bazaar fills needs that other VCS software doesn’t give. Isn’t this the whole point of Free Software? If it doesn’t have Feature X, then either patch it, fork it, or create anew.

Also, graphics and overall look and feel can be called innovation. Novell artwork in the SUSE distributions is beautiful, and frankly, no distro even comes close.

And yes, Canonical was “slammed” for not doing kernel development by a Novell employee who also had done little kernel development. Isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black? Further, where are the “Debian Developer” contributions to the kernel? Oh, not as much as expected, eh?

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109167 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:34:43 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109167 LinuxCanuck is free to express his opinions and feelings towards Debian. I don't see anything in the post that would compromise the Code of Conduct. He did get a few facts wrong, which were mentioned to him in the comments, but his post is expressing his feelings, and I hope he can do that on his own blog. LinuxCanuck is free to express his opinions and feelings towards Debian. I don’t see anything in the post that would compromise the Code of Conduct. He did get a few facts wrong, which were mentioned to him in the comments, but his post is expressing his feelings, and I hope he can do that on his own blog.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109166 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:19:16 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109166 The storm ORM is quite a bit different than MySQL. The ORM is sheer code to power MySQL or other databases, where MySQL is the database itself, so your analogy fails. The storm ORM is quite a bit different than MySQL. The ORM is sheer code to power MySQL or other databases, where MySQL is the database itself, so your analogy fails.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109165 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:17:19 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109165 I agree that Ubuntu should be taking greater advantage of Upstart. Right now, it's in SysVInit backwards compatibility mode, and it seems the Ubuntu developers are sitting on their hands, waiting for something magical to happen before taking full advantage of it. The same can be said with Fedora. I agree that Ubuntu should be taking greater advantage of Upstart. Right now, it’s in SysVInit backwards compatibility mode, and it seems the Ubuntu developers are sitting on their hands, waiting for something magical to happen before taking full advantage of it. The same can be said with Fedora.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109164 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:15:47 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109164 No, this is the biggest misunderstanding with the whole Firefox-IceWeasel fiasco. The Firefox artwork is free, it's just trademarked. Debian also has a trademarked logo. Does this make Debian non-free? Trademarks protect the organization and their product. Mozilla is more than happy for you to use the trademark, as long as you follow trademark law, and call it "Mozilla Firefox". No, this is the biggest misunderstanding with the whole Firefox-IceWeasel fiasco. The Firefox artwork is free, it’s just trademarked. Debian also has a trademarked logo. Does this make Debian non-free? Trademarks protect the organization and their product. Mozilla is more than happy for you to use the trademark, as long as you follow trademark law, and call it “Mozilla Firefox”.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109163 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:13:25 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109163 No, I fully understand what is at task for a package maintainer. Debian has a man page policy for every .deb packaged. Also, they are scrutinized to the rules of the DFSG. Any artwork, documentation, code, or anything else that doesn't fully comply with the DFSG is rejected or removed. Robots can't do this, people can. No, I fully understand what is at task for a package maintainer. Debian has a man page policy for every .deb packaged. Also, they are scrutinized to the rules of the DFSG. Any artwork, documentation, code, or anything else that doesn’t fully comply with the DFSG is rejected or removed. Robots can’t do this, people can.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109162 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:11:26 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109162 I don't get this "bunch of files on your disk" stuff. Are you suggesting that RPM just downloads whatever it wants, and litters your disk with useless crap? Because if you are, that shows your ignorance towards RPM. RPM does have pre scripts, and they work rather well. What you're describing about the upgrade scripts is exactly how it should behave. I believe your confusing "unpacked" with "installed". RPM unpacks what's needed, runs the rest of the pre scripts, then installs, then runs any post scripts that may be present. I don’t get this “bunch of files on your disk” stuff. Are you suggesting that RPM just downloads whatever it wants, and litters your disk with useless crap? Because if you are, that shows your ignorance towards RPM.

RPM does have pre scripts, and they work rather well. What you’re describing about the upgrade scripts is exactly how it should behave. I believe your confusing “unpacked” with “installed”. RPM unpacks what’s needed, runs the rest of the pre scripts, then installs, then runs any post scripts that may be present.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109161 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:08:52 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109161 This boils down to philosophy, and I think we should agree to disagree on this. You feel if you install a service, it should be setup for you listening for connections. I don't. We'll leave it at that. This boils down to philosophy, and I think we should agree to disagree on this. You feel if you install a service, it should be setup for you listening for connections. I don’t. We’ll leave it at that.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109160 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:07:45 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109160 I still count AppArmor and innovation, even if I find SELinux vastly superior. I didn't just add it to the post, if I didn't feel that Novell produced it. I don't just throw random things in the post for nothing. I still count AppArmor and innovation, even if I find SELinux vastly superior. I didn’t just add it to the post, if I didn’t feel that Novell produced it. I don’t just throw random things in the post for nothing.

]]> By: Aaron http://pthree.org/2008/12/21/debian-what-it-means-to-me/#comment-109159 Aaron Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:06:24 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=777#comment-109159 How is the dependency resolver in aptitude broken? Before aptitude, APT had no way of knowing about orphaned dependencies. Now there's 'apt-get autoremove', which was inspired by the way aptitude handled these orphaned dependencies. Aptitude is a superior APT. How is the dependency resolver in aptitude broken? Before aptitude, APT had no way of knowing about orphaned dependencies. Now there’s ‘apt-get autoremove’, which was inspired by the way aptitude handled these orphaned dependencies. Aptitude is a superior APT.

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