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	<title>Comments on: Email Netiquette &#8211; Part 1</title>
	<atom:link href="http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/</link>
	<description>Linux.  GNU.  Freedom.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 20:46:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: nah</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-122976</link>
		<dc:creator>nah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-122976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A.Y. Siu: you should use a newsreader instead for mailing lists. Subscribe to the list through gmane.org&#039;s nntp service (and if the mailing list needs to be subscribed to in order to post to it, subscribe with no email delivery). That way you never get mailing lists into your email, but can still read them, and they stay out of your way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A.Y. Siu: you should use a newsreader instead for mailing lists. Subscribe to the list through gmane.org&#8217;s nntp service (and if the mailing list needs to be subscribed to in order to post to it, subscribe with no email delivery). That way you never get mailing lists into your email, but can still read them, and they stay out of your way.</p>
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		<title>By: nah</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-122975</link>
		<dc:creator>nah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-122975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[btw, if you use K9 mail on Android, it can be set to bottom post.



But really, what it boils down to is: write your answer after the question! If you&#039;re replying to the whole thing, I don&#039;t see any argument for top vs bottom, but if there are a bunch of questions, this kind of top-posted reply is really unreadable:


Yes. 
No. 
With sugar.

Alice  wrote:
&gt; Should I get some more food?
&gt; And perhaps some muffins?
&gt; How do you like your coffee?



vs 


Alice  wrote:
&gt; Should I get some more food?

Yes. 

&gt; And perhaps some muffins?

No. 

&gt; How do you like your coffee?

With sugar.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>btw, if you use K9 mail on Android, it can be set to bottom post.</p>
<p>But really, what it boils down to is: write your answer after the question! If you&#8217;re replying to the whole thing, I don&#8217;t see any argument for top vs bottom, but if there are a bunch of questions, this kind of top-posted reply is really unreadable:</p>
<p>Yes.<br />
No.<br />
With sugar.</p>
<p>Alice  wrote:<br />
&gt; Should I get some more food?<br />
&gt; And perhaps some muffins?<br />
&gt; How do you like your coffee?</p>
<p>vs </p>
<p>Alice  wrote:<br />
&gt; Should I get some more food?</p>
<p>Yes. </p>
<p>&gt; And perhaps some muffins?</p>
<p>No. </p>
<p>&gt; How do you like your coffee?</p>
<p>With sugar.</p>
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		<title>By: nah</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-122974</link>
		<dc:creator>nah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-122974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could you give your headers anchors so it&#039;s possible to link to them? (Also, perhaps link directly from your TOC to each page/#header).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you give your headers anchors so it&#8217;s possible to link to them? (Also, perhaps link directly from your TOC to each page/#header).</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111397</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Almost nobody sends emails with line breaks at 80
characters. It makes
assumptions which may not be true. What if the recipient
has bad eyesight and
uses a large font in their email client? Or is viewing the
message on a mobile
device? If they use a good email client in these
situations, then they might not
notice at all. Or they might have to deal with each line
wrapping awkwardly.
(like this). I&#039;m a fan of just letting the client sort
things out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almost nobody sends emails with line breaks at 80<br />
characters. It makes<br />
assumptions which may not be true. What if the recipient<br />
has bad eyesight and<br />
uses a large font in their email client? Or is viewing the<br />
message on a mobile<br />
device? If they use a good email client in these<br />
situations, then they might not<br />
notice at all. Or they might have to deal with each line<br />
wrapping awkwardly.<br />
(like this). I&#8217;m a fan of just letting the client sort<br />
things out.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111335</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[bottom posting is ridiculous, and I strongly disagree. The reason it has become widespread is because nobody wants to scroll through pages of misformatted jibber jabber and intended emails before getting to the actual content of the email that is relevant, which is the actual reply. so that goes on top.

in a way however, you are right, because when it turns into a conversation, it gets confusing. that is where threading-powered clients and applications have an advantage, as you dont have to include the entire email conversation into the message quotation...

difficult stuff]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bottom posting is ridiculous, and I strongly disagree. The reason it has become widespread is because nobody wants to scroll through pages of misformatted jibber jabber and intended emails before getting to the actual content of the email that is relevant, which is the actual reply. so that goes on top.</p>
<p>in a way however, you are right, because when it turns into a conversation, it gets confusing. that is where threading-powered clients and applications have an advantage, as you dont have to include the entire email conversation into the message quotation&#8230;</p>
<p>difficult stuff</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111327</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Steve I&#039;m not sure why line breaks are being consumed. It seems to be happening to a few people. I thought I had it narrowed down to just Firefox 3.6.9 users on Ubuntu, but with you using Google Chrome, that appears to not be the case. I have seen other Ubuntu users get the line breaks inserted. So, I can&#039;t say for sure that I know what is going on. I&#039;ll keep an eye out for it though. Sorry for the headache.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve I&#8217;m not sure why line breaks are being consumed. It seems to be happening to a few people. I thought I had it narrowed down to just Firefox 3.6.9 users on Ubuntu, but with you using Google Chrome, that appears to not be the case. I have seen other Ubuntu users get the line breaks inserted. So, I can&#8217;t say for sure that I know what is going on. I&#8217;ll keep an eye out for it though. Sorry for the headache.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111319</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Paul Rouget- If we want to get pedantic, the format for the &quot;sigdashes&quot; should be:

&lt;pre&gt;\n-- \n&lt;/pre&gt;

where &quot;\n&quot; is the newline character.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul Rouget- If we want to get pedantic, the format for the &#8220;sigdashes&#8221; should be:</p>
<pre>\n-- \n</pre>
<p>where &#8220;\n&#8221; is the newline character.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Rouget</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111318</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Rouget</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For the signature, what about “–– Paul” (not \n after the separator)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the signature, what about “–– Paul” (not \n after the separator)?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111303</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Alan Pope- What&#039;s arrogant about asking people to reply in a manner that causes people to read text in a normal manner? What&#039;s arrogant about asking people to configure their client, or heaven forbid, move the text cursor, so the reply is at end end of the message? The arrogance comes from the person sending the reply thinking I want to read his comment first, before understand the context of the reply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alan Pope- What&#8217;s arrogant about asking people to reply in a manner that causes people to read text in a normal manner? What&#8217;s arrogant about asking people to configure their client, or heaven forbid, move the text cursor, so the reply is at end end of the message? The arrogance comes from the person sending the reply thinking I want to read his comment first, before understand the context of the reply.</p>
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		<title>By: A.Y. Siu</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111301</link>
		<dc:creator>A.Y. Siu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;@A.Y Siu- Your top-posting assumes that I want to read the thread from bottom-to-top, a convoluted way of reading threaded conversations. Please check out every other Internet protocol that supports conversations. It’s practically universally unanimous. Bottom-posting is the way we read. It makes zero sense to put the reply at the top.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m saying your advice sounds great for mailing lists, but what regular emails to your friends and family? I don&#039;t think of emails to friends and families as &quot;threaded conversations.&quot; I want to read their reply. Anything quoted below is just a reminder in case I forgot what we were talking about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>@A.Y Siu- Your top-posting assumes that I want to read the thread from bottom-to-top, a convoluted way of reading threaded conversations. Please check out every other Internet protocol that supports conversations. It’s practically universally unanimous. Bottom-posting is the way we read. It makes zero sense to put the reply at the top.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m saying your advice sounds great for mailing lists, but what regular emails to your friends and family? I don&#8217;t think of emails to friends and families as &#8220;threaded conversations.&#8221; I want to read their reply. Anything quoted below is just a reminder in case I forgot what we were talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Pope</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111300</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Pope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Alan Pope- Meh. I had made a comparison that gave that phrase accurate context, but ended up taking the analogy out, and left the “right-to-left” in. Fixed. Also, thank you for the other edit. In regards to Android phones, or other devices that don’t bottom-post by default, maybe they should fix their client? Or use a client that doesn’t assume I want to read your reply first, before reading the context?

Well done. That&#039;s exactly the arrogance I was talking about. &quot;Fix your client!&quot;. It&#039;s a _phone_ with a mail app shipped on the firmware. There is no source, it&#039;s a google closed source mail client. 

You&#039;re sounding more and more like comic book guy from the simpsons with each blog post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alan Pope- Meh. I had made a comparison that gave that phrase accurate context, but ended up taking the analogy out, and left the “right-to-left” in. Fixed. Also, thank you for the other edit. In regards to Android phones, or other devices that don’t bottom-post by default, maybe they should fix their client? Or use a client that doesn’t assume I want to read your reply first, before reading the context?</p>
<p>Well done. That&#8217;s exactly the arrogance I was talking about. &#8220;Fix your client!&#8221;. It&#8217;s a _phone_ with a mail app shipped on the firmware. There is no source, it&#8217;s a google closed source mail client. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re sounding more and more like comic book guy from the simpsons with each blog post.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Toponce : Email Netiquette &#8211; Part 2</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111297</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Toponce : Email Netiquette &#8211; Part 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] }Email Netiquette &#8211; Part 2This is the second in a series of four. The first can be found at http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/. Continuing our discussion from the previous post, I&#8217;ll expound on points four through six in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] }Email Netiquette &#8211; Part 2This is the second in a series of four. The first can be found at <a href="http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/" rel="nofollow">http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/</a>. Continuing our discussion from the previous post, I&#8217;ll expound on points four through six in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: notzed</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111294</link>
		<dc:creator>notzed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re about a decade too late on most of this.  Especially wrt to html or &#039;wrap at 80 columns&#039; - actually using &#039;plain html&#039; is more useful since it lets the client render word-wrapping whilst maintaining paragraphs.  Plain text isn&#039;t as simple as you believe it to be either.  But the main problem with explicit html usage is just that it invariable leads to unreadable emails since nobody knows how to use it and outlook generates such horrible html.

And top posting isn&#039;t really evil - bottom posting is worse if the quoting is equivalent.  I prefer top or mixed and I suspect the only reason bottom posting was the convention is that is where the original email clients traditionally put the cursor.  And for no other good reason.

Stop fussing with ancient technical trivialities that were discussed to death decades ago.  Netiquette should be more about treating others with respect, keeping posts on topic on specialist mailing lists, not nagging or re-asking the same questions, not mis-quoting to push a given view, starting new threads rather than replying to them, and remembering they are public places.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re about a decade too late on most of this.  Especially wrt to html or &#8216;wrap at 80 columns&#8217; &#8211; actually using &#8216;plain html&#8217; is more useful since it lets the client render word-wrapping whilst maintaining paragraphs.  Plain text isn&#8217;t as simple as you believe it to be either.  But the main problem with explicit html usage is just that it invariable leads to unreadable emails since nobody knows how to use it and outlook generates such horrible html.</p>
<p>And top posting isn&#8217;t really evil &#8211; bottom posting is worse if the quoting is equivalent.  I prefer top or mixed and I suspect the only reason bottom posting was the convention is that is where the original email clients traditionally put the cursor.  And for no other good reason.</p>
<p>Stop fussing with ancient technical trivialities that were discussed to death decades ago.  Netiquette should be more about treating others with respect, keeping posts on topic on specialist mailing lists, not nagging or re-asking the same questions, not mis-quoting to push a given view, starting new threads rather than replying to them, and remembering they are public places.</p>
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		<title>By: Links 18/9/2010: GNU/Linux in Dell China, Wine 1.3.3, Mageia (Mandriva Fork) Launched &#124; Techrights</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111293</link>
		<dc:creator>Links 18/9/2010: GNU/Linux in Dell China, Wine 1.3.3, Mageia (Mandriva Fork) Launched &#124; Techrights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Email Netiquette – Part 1 As with top-posting, not trimming your replies is lazy, and again, it’s rude. Some people don’t have the hard drive space you might, or the bandwidth to pull down such a noisy message. Cutting out the cruft, leaving the relevant pieces in, is considerate, polite and logically sound. Do you, and everyone else a favor, and trim your replies. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Email Netiquette – Part 1 As with top-posting, not trimming your replies is lazy, and again, it’s rude. Some people don’t have the hard drive space you might, or the bandwidth to pull down such a noisy message. Cutting out the cruft, leaving the relevant pieces in, is considerate, polite and logically sound. Do you, and everyone else a favor, and trim your replies. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://pthree.org/2010/09/18/email-netiquette-part-1/#comment-111292</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Sep 2010 00:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pthree.org/?p=1426#comment-111292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Steve- This is what you get for writing one large post, then cutting out into 4 separate posts. The argument for an 80 character-wide email is coming in a subsequent post. Sorry for that. However, I&#039;ll give you the low-down here:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;b&gt;Keep the width of your message under 80 characters.&lt;/b&gt;
This might sound like an odd netiquette rule, but wrapping your message at 80 characters makes it easier for the recipient to read your message. In fact, the psychology department at Witchita State University &lt;a href=&quot;http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/72/columns.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;did a study on this very thing&lt;/a&gt;. Which is better for reading text? Long columns of text or shorter columns? The results of the survey showed that people could read faster with greater accuracy and have better comprehension with two-column justified text than three-column (too short) or one-column (too long).

Translating this to email, people don&#039;t want to read lengthy columns of text. When you wrap your text to a shorter justification, but not too short, as the study shows, it&#039;s easier for the reader to comprehend what you&#039;re talking about, and they can read through the text quicker. Major publishers know this as well. Pick up your favorite novel, and count the number of characters on a single line. I have a paperback copy of Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley, and each line is wrapped at exactly 60 characters. I have another paperback copy of Macbeth, by Shakespeare. Each line wraps at exactly 50 characters. Looking through all my novels, I&#039;m actually struggling to find a book that has more than 85 characters on a single line. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Debian-System-Concepts-Techniques/dp/1593270690&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Debian System&lt;/a&gt;, written by Martin Krafft, wraps at 85 characters.

The standardized accepted practice for email, is to actually wrap your email text at 72-75 columns. This gives enough room for others to reply to your message, which will usually prepend the two characters &quot;&gt; &quot; to your original message, and still keep the length of the mail under 80 characters. As would be expected, Microsoft Outlook seems to struggle with this when writing emails initially, but can be configured to wrap at 80 characters for replies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve- This is what you get for writing one large post, then cutting out into 4 separate posts. The argument for an 80 character-wide email is coming in a subsequent post. Sorry for that. However, I&#8217;ll give you the low-down here:</p>
<blockquote><p><b>Keep the width of your message under 80 characters.</b><br />
This might sound like an odd netiquette rule, but wrapping your message at 80 characters makes it easier for the recipient to read your message. In fact, the psychology department at Witchita State University <a href="http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/72/columns.asp" rel="nofollow">did a study on this very thing</a>. Which is better for reading text? Long columns of text or shorter columns? The results of the survey showed that people could read faster with greater accuracy and have better comprehension with two-column justified text than three-column (too short) or one-column (too long).</p>
<p>Translating this to email, people don&#8217;t want to read lengthy columns of text. When you wrap your text to a shorter justification, but not too short, as the study shows, it&#8217;s easier for the reader to comprehend what you&#8217;re talking about, and they can read through the text quicker. Major publishers know this as well. Pick up your favorite novel, and count the number of characters on a single line. I have a paperback copy of Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley, and each line is wrapped at exactly 60 characters. I have another paperback copy of Macbeth, by Shakespeare. Each line wraps at exactly 50 characters. Looking through all my novels, I&#8217;m actually struggling to find a book that has more than 85 characters on a single line. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Debian-System-Concepts-Techniques/dp/1593270690" rel="nofollow">The Debian System</a>, written by Martin Krafft, wraps at 85 characters.</p>
<p>The standardized accepted practice for email, is to actually wrap your email text at 72-75 columns. This gives enough room for others to reply to your message, which will usually prepend the two characters &#8220;> &#8221; to your original message, and still keep the length of the mail under 80 characters. As would be expected, Microsoft Outlook seems to struggle with this when writing emails initially, but can be configured to wrap at 80 characters for replies.</p></blockquote>
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