Comments on: Yeah, But It's Real Unix https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/ Linux. GNU. Freedom. Mon, 09 Oct 2017 10:42:05 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9-alpha-41547 By: Weenie https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-253788 Sat, 31 Oct 2015 08:55:32 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-253788 According to a conspiracy theory long popular among ITS and TOPS-20 fans, Unix's growth is the result of a plot, hatched during the 1970's at Bell Labs, whose intent was to hobble AT&T's competitors by making them dependent upon a system whose future evolution was to be under AT&T's control. This would be accomplished by disseminating an operating system that is apparently inexpensive and easily portable, but also relatively unreliable and insecure (so as to require continuing upgrades). In this view, Unix was designed to be one of the first computer viruses (see virus) — but a virus spread to computers indirectly by people and market forces, rather than directly through disks and networks. In 1983 Ken Thompson published a Paper known as reflections of trusting trust, that same year a young man left the MIT artificial intelligence labs and gave the world Unix for free based on AT&T's Unix clone of System_V and the Bugs in the compiler have never stopped coming, in contrast to the single CVE or Bug found in Bell-Labs Unix which was a local exploit - in it's entire lifetime.

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By: Michael Jensen https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-116067 Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:23:14 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-116067 Real Unix == Anything descended from the AT&T Research UNIX releases

All of the real unixes (including the BSDs) are complete OSs, developed together as a cohesive whole. Linux is just a work-a-like kernel. How close Linux is to Unix is completely dependant on the distribution. Some distros e.g. SlackWare are pretty close Sys V UNIX, others like the Ubuntu (what I am currently using, as it my options at work where either Windows or Ubuntu) are quite a bit different to UNIX Unix.

There is actually quite a bit of Unix that has always been public domain software, and all of the Research editions have since been released under BSD like license(they didn't used to be).

p.s. AIX is descended from AT&T System III UNIX and with amount of vendor gratuitous changes done towards the end of Sun and Oracle have continued to do to Solaris, it's closer to the mythical pure UNIX now than Solaris is. It's really too bad as Solaris used to be a be pretty decent and standard System V. (SunOS 4 is still better than either)

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By: Amy Rose https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-55592 Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:18:23 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-55592 This sounds like elitism. But who really cares about it, in the grand scheme of things? I am happy with Kubuntu (but my opinion must not count because I'm not a CS or IT student; my major has nothing to do with computers).

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By: Lonnie Olson https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-54694 Wed, 30 May 2007 23:06:36 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-54694 "real Unix" just means it was derived from the official AT&T Unix.
Linux was not derived from this original source. It was
intended to imitate Unix on an x86 processor. Hence Linux is
a Unix imitation... not "real Unix".

Now to the even more important question, is using a "real Unix"
operating system the most important reason to choose an OS?
Absolutely not! Each Unix derivative has it's own pros and cons.
Just as Linux has it's pros and cons. Those should all be
weighed together. "real Unix" is a snobs response, that's all.

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By: randomwalker https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-54132 Sun, 27 May 2007 19:01:50 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-54132 Real Unix is hard to use. That seems to be important to some people. I don't know why.

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By: muz https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53799 Fri, 25 May 2007 20:24:32 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53799 My response: "freebsd? Is it an obscure version of linux?" haha

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By: Oliver https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53788 Fri, 25 May 2007 17:15:32 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53788 Wow - lot of nonsense, "Linux is real UNIX" etc. First UNIX is just a trademark and BSD was a patchset and later a system of it's own (in the 70s). FreeBSD is a BSD fork, it's an open-source derivative of original AT&T UNIX! Solaris or the former SunOS is a fork of BSD. *BSD is about quality and ... Linux ... ask Andrew Morton for example 😀

http://wwww.lemis.com/bsdpaper.html

Read it, it's no Linux kid, it's a real UNIX developer since three decades, with code in NetBSD, Linux and FreeBSD.

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By: Wilmer https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53678 Thu, 24 May 2007 19:59:11 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53678 Real Unices are a PITA to use and the people who use them want appreciation for their braveness. That's all. 😛 These are also the people who say "People who love Unix use FreeBSD. People who hate Windows use Linux." and similar bullshit. Apparently Linux is too famous and "mainstream" so they have to find something else, something more obscure. 🙂

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By: Footsteps https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53640 Thu, 24 May 2007 12:40:07 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53640 Use AIX for a short time, then you'll see. AIX ain't UNIX is the battle cry of the heterogenous unix environment admin.

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By: Gianni https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53585 Thu, 24 May 2007 07:05:53 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53585 Basicly what they are saying is that Unix (BSD, AIX, ...) are the new Linux.

Remember when using Linux was for nerds ? That's old shit! Now you must use something else 🙂

I think that's what we call progress.
Just my 2c.

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53515 Wed, 23 May 2007 20:58:01 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53515 jldugger- You're absolutely correct. I have never done a migration from Unix to Linux, so I don't know what's involved or how difficult it would be. Knowing what was being run in that shop tells me that it would be difficult. That's why I suggested a slow migration. During the migration, things would be tested along the way, making sure that nothing was broken, and that everything worked well.

However, my experience with Unix has been decent. I am familiar with most Unices and the tools on them. They aren't much different than a standard Linux box, so I can't imagine that it would be that hard. But I am inexperienced, so I'll take your word for it.

Footsteps- Why isn't IBM AIX Unix? AIX transcended from System V. AIX itself is an acronym standing fro Advanced IBM UniX. Please enlighten us how IBM AIX is not Unix.

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By: treb0r https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53514 Wed, 23 May 2007 20:45:01 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53514 I've known a few people over the years who cock a snook at GNU/Linux and swear by the various BSDs instead. One guy I know used to go on about the academic background to BSD, and how the sheer number of GNU/Linux developers would never outweigh the more advanced skills of the BSD community. ESR predicted that the opposite would inevitably happen. I think it obviously has.

On the other hand, don't forget kids, Gnu's Not Unix...

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By: Footsteps https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53506 Wed, 23 May 2007 19:11:15 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53506 First of all, AIX ain't UNIX. 🙂

Second, if you're in a big AIX shop administering and promoting AIX servers then you probably don't know much about UNIX. Or you're an IBM salesman.

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By: Paul cartwright https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53501 Wed, 23 May 2007 18:04:34 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53501 well, I used to work for AT&T and I installed AT&T Unix SYS V .
now I run SUSE on my desktop and XP/Kubuntu on my laptop. The only reason I haven't switched to Kubuntu on my desktop is that my wife doesn't like change.I think the only real difference between the perceived REAL UNIX & LINUX is that the REAL UNIX didn't have a GUI. We did everything from the command line. As far as I am concerned, Kubuntu **IS** the new UNIX with a GUI.

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By: jldugger https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53499 Wed, 23 May 2007 17:37:29 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53499 Truly written by someone who's never tried to migrate an application from "real UNIX" to Linux. Or from any UNIX or another UNIX. Linux is different enough that many times applications that were written for much older UNIXes will need to be modified. And Linux has changed considerably a couple times. It may change again, who knows.

This sort of stuff matters for the commercial UNIX systems people buy for reliability. Real UNIX in these cases means "well tested". But for most BSD users, Real UNIX just generally feel like that heritage is worth something. It's not.

But try doing a migration on your own sometime and see what breaks. You might be lucky enough to discover that your software vendors stuck with POSIX specs rather than tying their software to the OS they sold it to you on.

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By: Vek https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53495 Wed, 23 May 2007 16:53:26 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53495 Sounds all too familiar... when I was there a couple years ago, UCI had a lab with a bunch of 'solaris graphics workstations'. We'd sit there coding for hours in some horrible GUI or something (it was locked down and we could not install KDE or Gnome or anything useful) to make something that barely ran ultra slowly in OpenGL, while longingly looking just 3 rows down at the brand new pentium 4's with ridiculously good video cards.... which we couldn't use because 'these are graphics workstations, they're obviously better and what the real world uses for graphics'.

Universities are soooooo slooooooow.

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By: John https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53493 Wed, 23 May 2007 16:48:30 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53493 There are actually two ways that a OS can claim the trademark "UNIX." One is to be based off the original code. The BSD's share their ancestry with the original UNIX, and can therefore claim to be "Real UNIX." The other way is to go through the lengthy and costly standardization process with The Open Group, the organization that owns the UNIX trademark.

Linux would most likely pass this standardization process pretty easily, but why bother? The Linux name holds more corporate weight than the UNIX name does these days.

Does being "Real UNIX" mean that *BSD/AIX/Solaris/HP-UX/Unixware/etc. is better than Linux? Not at all.. my experience is that the various linux distros go the extra mile for usability that most "Real" Unices do not. Most "Real" Unices use the abortion known as CDE as their graphical environment.

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By: woofball https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53488 Wed, 23 May 2007 15:56:26 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53488 Officially the only thing you can call Unix is one that has been licensed properly. Not that almost anyone does that, really. Some people call their descendant from X, which used to be Unix, a Unix. It's pretty silly imho.

I could understand the Solaris. I could also understand the AIX. FreeBSD I could not. The reason is that what I see to be Unix more than just adhering to certain standards is stability and vendor support.

AIX for instance costs a lot, but you also get a rock solid platform with awesome documentation and support. Some of the "real" Unixes have had so good man pages for instance that it makes me want to literally cry when I see some of the ones on my Linux installations.. Not to mention the real hard books, and what is covered in the certification courses and so on.

I have not noticed them being that good ever on any Linux or FreeBSD. Granted, there's a learning curve in competencies and the product is slightly dumb in its own cute way, it can work like nothing else.

Linux for instance has not even existed for long time enough to have been able to prove it really is stable. The mere existence on the timeline of Linux is less than the record uptimes on some of the "real Unixes". I've heard of couple systems going in production past 15 years, and one (which is most likely the world record, and was in banking & investment sector crunching some really valuable data) over 20 years. To make this even harder, everything in Linux has basically changed too often. You could say there has been "x Linuxes", pick your own guess of number of the main kernel revisements.

And yeah, some people like getting that virtual +1 penis size by calling their toys "real Unix". It's fanboyism at its purest.

Is "real Unix" worth it then? Perhaps, but that depends on your real needs and whether you are a lame little kid or not. There are places where will be no Linux/FreeBSD/Windows installations in decades still because the risks of changing are simply too high. Some are building presently new AIX based installations, and Solaris too. They are nice platforms for certain stuff.

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By: anon https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53486 Wed, 23 May 2007 15:48:23 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53486 this argument is based on the heritage of the code, i suppose (apart from irrational stuff).

"gnu" as well as "linux" stuff was written from scratch, wheras freebsd and solaris (presumably) can trace their code back to a couple of decades ago.

what practical advantage that has is clearly arguable 😉

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By: dystopianray https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53485 Wed, 23 May 2007 15:48:01 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53485 When people say 'real unix' they are mostly referring to operating systems that are direct descendants of original unix source code as opposed to linux which was created largely from scratch.

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By: Karl Lattimer https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53484 Wed, 23 May 2007 15:46:38 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53484 Isn't it ironic that even though Linus strives for posix compliance throughout the linux kernel he doesn't get the recognition that linux is in fact the ONLY _REAL_ UNIX.

BSD/Solaris/AIX and even SCO UNIXWARE deviate from the POSIX spec more than Linux would ever, I suppose Minix was also a _REAL_ UNIX, but that is long since dead (or almost).

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By: Peteris Krisjanis https://pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53483 Wed, 23 May 2007 15:31:54 +0000 http://www.pthree.org/2007/05/23/yeah-but-its-real-unix/#comment-53483 Nothing difficult, I guess. Real answer would be "I am too leet to admit that I run 0.3% market share OS, so I say it is real Unix. Linux is stinkin popular anyway, so it must be punished (for not waiting to AIX/Solaris/FreeBSD to catch up)".

No offense, but every time I hear this answer I think - this human simply are too shy to admit that it runs something rare. Come on, FreeBSD and AIX - there is nothing to be ashamed about. AIX have been most secure and stable commercial Unix for years and FreeBSD has excelent network stack. Solaris has it's own advantages too - even now with open sourced stuff and all new tech thingies inside it.

I use Linux, not because it is "real Unix", but it just suits my need best - and I am self-educated in using it.

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