Comments on: The Debian Installer - The Most Flexible Linux Installer https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/ Linux. GNU. Freedom. Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:00:46 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0-alpha-42199 By: Loup Vaillant https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110532 Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:44:03 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110532 John: "You have to be compatible with the rest of the corporate world."

You most certainly meant "You have to be compatible with Microsoft". I disagree. You can be *free* from Microsoft, so internal compatibility isn't a problem any more. Compatibility with the rest of the world (not only corporate) can be achieved through standard file format and protocols (PDF, HTML, SMTP, HTTP…). The only thing left to overcome is the sense of total loss induced by the absence of the familiar green "start" button at the bottom left of the screen (sarcasm intended).

John: "You want to rely on some bunch of people that make changes to a wiki and are not responsible for anything? This is awat your business will rely on?"

Given the existence of Wikipedia, GNU/Linux, and Debian, I don't think accountability is a prerequisite for dependability. This kind of thinking is better at saving you butt than the company's. "No one has been fired for choosing IBM". Or C++.

John: "[…] mailing lists are outdated form of communication just like IRC."

How so ? What are the other forms of communications, and what are their specific advantages ? Are these advantages merely technical (MLs could be improved to have them), or fundamental? Right now, the only really superior alternative I see is Google Wave.

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By: Joey Hess https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110531 Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:26:27 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110531 One correction -- to the best of my knowledge, d-i does not support installing from NFS. The necessary kernel modules are not available. This, as well as installing *to* NFS are still in the TODO pile.

(Also, d-i does support wireless well in general; the manual's wording is a bit pessimistic.)

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By: Links 18/11/2009: KDE 4.4 Gets Date, Google Phone is Coming | Boycott Novell https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110508 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:41:21 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110508 [...] The Debian Installer – The Most Flexible Linux Installer I was just recently blown away by what I can accomplish with the Debian installer on getting Debian installed on a system. I used to think that the openSUSE installer was the most flexible Linux installer, with Anaconda running a close second, but I think I’m going to at least put the Debian installer in a 2-way tie for first with openSUSE. The only reason I would say that, is because the openSUSE installer uses a hub-and-spoke design to installing the operating system. This means you can pick and choose what you want to install, rather than going through the entire installer itself. Further, the openSUSE installer supports installing from a SMB share on a Windows network, with neither Anaconda nor the Debian installer support (that I can tell). [...]

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By: The Debian Installer – The Most Flexible Linux Installer | Debian-News.net - Your one stop for news about Debian https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110490 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:04:22 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110490 [...] I’m going to at least put the Debian installer in a 2-way tie for first with openSUSE. More here However, one thing that continues to impress me about the Debian installer is the extreme amount of [...]

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110489 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:07:48 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110489 @John Of course Linux and Unix have to interoperate with the Windows operating system. That doesn't imply that enterprise solutions are based on Microsoft development. Are you saying Oracle software is based on Microsoft technology?

Acvite Directory versus OpenLDAP really is comparing apples to oranges. However, OpenLDAP plus Kerberos mimics 90% of the Active Directory installs I've personally administered. Most shops aren't using Active Directory for everything that it offers, which is generally the case for most Microsoft software. The Unix philosophy is entirely different. Rather than give you a massive Swiss Army knife to do everything under the sun for you, we split those tasks into separate smaller tools that do one job, and do it well. And yes, I'll agree with your assessment that Active Directory is a "*BEAST*". No argument there.

Also, since our discussion, I've been reviewing the Debian documentation. I'll easily put it on par with FreeBSD documentation. As you may, or may not, be aware, every package that is shipped with Debian Stable must ship an updated man page. This is written in the policy. Further, the Debian documentation is vast, highly complete, and well written. Start here, then get back to me:

http://debian.org/doc/, http://manpages.debian.net, http://wiki.debian.org/

In terms of documentation, Debian is documenting all software it ships, which is 3rd party software. Microsoft isn't. So, tell me which method is more likely to reach a broader audience? And, from what I've seen, which has been over the past 10 years now, all Debian documentation has kept up rather well to the changes paces of the distribution. Show me some outdated Debian docs. Please.

I won't argue with RHEL and SLES for their place in the enterprise. I administer both. They're solid distributions. But tell me why Debian can't compete. I'm interested. There is no more of a stable server than Debian Stable. There is no other operating system vendor that ships more software than Debian. Debian aligns itself more closely to the Unix philosophies than other distributions. All the software available for RHEL and SLES is in Debian. Please, enlighten me.

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By: maciejewski https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110487 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:19:50 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110487 Debian offers more than I ever needed. As a rookie I encounter difficulties every day, and have no problems finding solutions. Google is not the only way to get the problem solved, but is most powerful tool even when searching for the issues with microsoft software. Documentation doesn't need to be improved. I'd rather say that it needs to be tidied up 🙂
And advantage which makes Debian one of the best choices for admin wannabes is that it's absolutely free and gives you a lot of alternatives during the installation and every-day use. Try to learn how to be professional admin with windows , having only 300$ for both software, and hardware AFAIK won't be enough even for win2k server 🙂
Obviously it doesn't match needs all of the people, some of them are so rich , that can afford new system and full support because of their ignorance and being lazy.

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By: John https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110486 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:35:15 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110486 "@John No, not all enterprise solutions are based on Microsoft software. Saying so shows severe ignorance on your part. IBM, Novell, Red Hat and HP offer “enterprise” software solutions for installations, configurations, clustering, imaging, troubleshooting and other system administrative tasks."

They are just a part of bigger solutions based on MS. Everything has to be compatible with MS. Your Oracle or MySQL database running on SLES or Red Hat is still used on clients with Windows workstations managed by Active Directory using Exchange and MS Office etc. etc.

You have to be compatible with the rest of the corporate world.

"Active Directory is good, but OpenLDAP and Kerberos can meet the needs of centralized user databases and single sign-on. In fact, the SSO functionality of Acitve Directory came straight out of MIT’s Kerberos for Unix machines."

I always hear this argument from people who don't actually know what Active Directory is and what you can do with it. AD gives you the power to manage in one place everything from permissions of network shares, workstation settings, user profiles that can also be set to mobile and used from any computer on the network. You can encrypt user files with central key recovery, encrypt all traffic, change power options for the machines, user permissions for managing the hardware, add remotely printers, network shares, run scripts, use remote desktop and many many things more. Everything is well documented, options are clear and easy to change.

Linux is lacking this king of system with so much integration. This is why it's not used widely in such setups. It needs more work, more admins and costs more to maintain.

LDAP is just a directory service, nothing more. If AD is a car then LDAP is just one tire.

Active Directory is a *BEAST* and there is nothing even remotely comparable with it.

Samba tries to be somewhat compatible with it as a server but nobody sane will be risking using it in a corporate network. There is no point in using it instead of Windows Server. Windows servers are better for windows clients. It's a safer solution.

"No doubt Linux documentation could improve, but it’s not the bleak picture you’re painting. The Linux Documentation Project holds a vast array of documentation. The Ubuntu and Debian wikis fill in many of the gaps. Forums, mailing lists and yes, even Google, have all the answers I’ve ever needed to look up. But, I’ll agree that it’s an area of constant improvement. And the FreeBSD handbook is real good."

FreeBSD has man pages for everything. Even online man pages http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi

Debian has some outdated man pages some incomplete info pages and lots of even basic commands undocumented. You have to rely on Google and try to find the most actual informations. It's unacceptable.

You want to rely on some bunch of people that make changes to a wiki and are not responsible for anything? This is awat your business will rely on?

"However, Microsoft Technet? Are you serious? The problem with Microsoft documentation, is it deals only with Microsoft products, like Office, Visual Studio, etc."

Yes and this documentation is way better than Debian docs, forums, mailing lists etc.

"The majority of software that exists on a Windows machine isn’t Microsoft software, and as a result, isn’t in Microsoft documentation."

Are you saying that MS should document like milion of other programs from different vendors?

"So, “Google” is the _only_ help you have."

NO. You have vendor documentation and support. No place for Google here.

"Mailing lists are sparse"

Because mailing lists are outdated form of communication just like IRC.

"most Microsoft forums seem to be programming based (asp.net, for example)"

Not true. You can find more informations about Windows than about any kind of Linux.

"and most developers who are developing proprietary solutions don’t have wikis or other forms of documentation for their software."

Maybe you should use software with better quality and support. We are talking about corporate solutions here not some freeware notepad app.

"Lastly, the document I’m pointing to is highly relevant for the post right now."
Sure, it will get outdated as the Debian installer improves."

And you won't have any means of checking if it's outdated or not because Debian creators don't give you a well maintained documentation. This is the point.

There is no place in enterprise for distributions like Debian.
SLES and Red Hat would be a better solutions but still lacking integration with existing solutions.

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110482 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:33:31 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110482 @John No, not all enterprise solutions are based on Microsoft software. Saying so shows severe ignorance on your part. IBM, Novell, Red Hat and HP offer "enterprise" software solutions for installations, configurations, clustering, imaging, troubleshooting and other system administrative tasks.

Active Directory is good, but OpenLDAP and Kerberos can meet the needs of centralized user databases and single sign-on. In fact, the SSO functionality of Acitve Directory came straight out of MIT's Kerberos for Unix machines.

No doubt Linux documentation could improve, but it's not the bleak picture you're painting. The Linux Documentation Project holds a vast array of documentation. The Ubuntu and Debian wikis fill in many of the gaps. Forums, mailing lists and yes, even Google, have all the answers I've ever needed to look up. But, I'll agree that it's an area of constant improvement. And the FreeBSD handbook is real good.

However, Microsoft Technet? Are you serious? The problem with Microsoft documentation, is it deals only with Microsoft products, like Office, Visual Studio, etc. The majority of software that exists on a Windows machine isn't Microsoft software, and as a result, isn't in Microsoft documentation. So, "Google" is the _only_ help you have. Mailing lists are sparse, most Microsoft forums seem to be programming based (asp.net, for example), and most developers who are developing proprietary solutions don't have wikis or other forms of documentation for their software. Sorry, but I've used Technet, and it doesn't meet most of my needs.

Lastly, the document I'm pointing to is highly relevant for the post right now. It shows the different installation modes you can perform with Debian, which is what the past is all about. Sure, it will get outdated as the Debian installer improves. Debian has a great deal of documentation for just about everything under the sun. Here is just one of many that's available from Debian.

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By: John https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110479 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:30:38 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110479 "I think you’ll find that it’s rather impressive, keeping up very well with the “enterprise” solutions that exist out there."

Existing "enterprise" solutions are based on Microsoft software.
There is nothing even close to Active Directory functionality in Linux.
Instaling from FTP is not a "enterprise" functionality, Linux lacks integration with existing enterprise solutions. Only Samba is *somewhat* compatible with the rest of enterprise world.

"Also, spending some time on Google will show you a vast array of documentation on how to use the Debian installer to its fullest."

Google in not a proper documentation.
Linux lacks even basic man pages.
Try FreeBSD if you want to see how proper UNIX documentation should look.
Try Microsoft Technet if you want to see how any modern documentation should look.

"This document might be a good start for you."

Most documents of this type will be quickly irrevelant.
This and Google are NOT a substitute of proper frequently updated documentation.

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By: Kevin Mark https://pthree.org/2009/11/15/the-debian-installer-the-most-flexible-linux-installer/#comment-110478 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:48:42 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1186#comment-110478 Wifi during install.

"The use of wireless networking during installation is still under development and whether it will work depends on the type of adaptor and the configuration of your wireless access point."

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.html.en#network-cards

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