Comments on: Does Debian Deviate From Standards Or Upstream? https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/ Linux. GNU. Freedom. Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:00:46 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0-alpha-42127 By: Jonathan Vasquez https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-115567 Sun, 13 Mar 2011 06:14:13 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-115567 @Aaron The Arch Wiki says to add the user to the users group, but remember, Arch is what you make it ;D haha.

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By: Jonathan Vasquez https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-115566 Sun, 13 Mar 2011 06:12:45 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-115566 I also run Debian on my systems. I love Debian as I do Arch. I did leave Arch though because of the package signing issue. As for the separating non-free from free, I love GPLv2 (NOT, I repeat NOT v3) and BSD licenses and I advocate for them, but I don't mind proprietary software as well. There are wonderful proprietary software out there and it's the developers choice whether he/she wants to release their software as proprietary or not. Thus I believe this world can live in harmony with open source/proprietary software.

Personally I believe that a distribution should be kept as close to vanilla as possible (with the occasional patch if something is _really_ required), it should be making the life of the user simple (so using well written/designed GUI tools to do the job is not a problem - even though I don't want to get overbogged by GUI apps, sometimes CLI is just much easier), and it should use the latest technologies to make an all in one desktop, and that definitely means that if proprietary software needs to be included, then so be it. We need to use our computers to complete our work, not to turn it on and be lacking something. The reason we started using computers is because of the way it helped us achieve our goals, and as a bonus we received a wonderful world to learn from.

- Jon

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110855 Sun, 09 May 2010 13:55:40 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110855 Wait, Arch uses the "users" group? They don't use user private groups? I thought openSUSE was the only operating system that made that mistake. 🙂

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By: Yorokobi https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110854 Sat, 08 May 2010 19:20:49 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110854 In Archlinux, the system-wide configuration that governs whether a user can utilize cron is the 'users' group. If a user 'A' is not a member of the 'users' group, user 'A' will not have access to crontab.

So far as I can tell, dcrod does not use /etc/cron.{allow,deny}

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By: firefox 3.5 debian | FIREFOX https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110663 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:30:57 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110663 [...] Aaron Toponce : Does Debian Deviate From Standards Or Upstream? [...]

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110618 Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:12:09 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110618 @Carlie No, that's not accurate. We launch remote Firefox installs on RHEL all the time to pull up documentation, and it behaves exactly the way it should. I don't know what you're doing wrong, but you're definitely doing something wrong.

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By: Carlie Coats https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110617 Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:14:45 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110617 Not the first time RedHat has botched it!

What RedHat does to the Mozilla based browsers is another extremely annoying example: if you launch a browser on a remote machine, the !*&$%^! RedHat-version browser code has been munged actually to launch a browser on your desktop rather than the machine you thought you launched it on.

So when you're logged in to an Altix server hundreds of miles away, and you attempt to look at the HTML compiler documentation located there, your "firefox file:/opt/compiler-vendor/docs/index.html" command on the remote machine _actually_ launches a browser on your desktop, and of course "/opt/compiler-vendor/docs/index.html" doesn't exist there. It's RedHat who has munged the browser source this way (I've got the bugzilla bug around here somewhere...), as you can verify by downloading the source directly from Mozilla, and comparing.

And this for an allegedly-server operating system on a clearly-server always-headless Itanium machine! Doesn't meet my laugh test for "server OS".

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By: Brett Alton https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110616 Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:47:45 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110616 This is very interesting and insightful. I do also prefer Debian's method of packaging Apache and find it hard to use CentOS/RedHat/Fedora for that very reason. I'll stick with Ubuntu/Debian thank you very much.

Also very interesting about cron. I always prefer the distro to stick with upstream as closely as possible unless it enhances the product, such as Apache as mentioned above.

Also, lesson learned from libssl when the random number generator was destroyed.

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By: JanC https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110614 Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:27:14 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110614 Also a good thing to know: when Debian changes the way configuration works, that is often documented in README.Debian, e.g. the Apache 2 configuration is explained in /usr/share/doc/apache2/README.Debian.gz

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By: Kamil Kisiel https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110613 Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:19:49 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110613 launchd does indeed have all the functionality of cron, although working with the plists is a bit more cumbersome than editing a crontab. However, there are programs that can help with the process.

At my workplace we never use cron on our Macs and schedule everything thought launchd.

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By: Links 5/1/2010: Android (Linux) Surge; Palm Pre Plus | Boycott Novell https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110608 Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:35:55 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110608 [...] Does Debian Deviate From Standards Or Upstream? So, it seemed clear. Debian was in fact not changing the default behavior of cron, but it was Red Hat who was doing the changing. Further, despite what the documentation says, I could find no site-wide configuration file to modify this behavior- even referenced in the source code. The only way to make the change was to change the code before compilation (so maybe we should submit a bug on the man page). [...]

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By: Mackenzie https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110607 Tue, 05 Jan 2010 03:22:56 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110607 OSX has cron. I've used /etc/cronttab on OSX 10.4 (Tiger)

/me unchecks "Authenticate this comment using OpenID." because it always always always fails

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110606 Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:30:33 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110606 @mok0 You didn't read the post in its entirety, did you? Quote:

Now, for the record, I don’t care if Debian deviates… much. Debian is an operating system. Sometimes, I think those in the Free Software and GNU/Linux world forget that. Operating systems are free to make the changes necessary for their platform as they see fit. Those changes will likely either make users happy and make the operating system popular, like Ubuntu, or they won’t be good changes, and likely will lose users, like, well, Gentoo (sorry guys, but you have seen better days). I’m all for changes that are thought out and that bring obvious or non-obvious benefits. For example, Debian Squeeze moving away from System V Init to Upstart.

And further...

But, when breaking from standard practice is called into question, I’m glad Debian sticks as close to upstream as possible. I understand the need for patches where appropriate, but I would prefer as vanilla as possible so I’m not a fish out of water when I need to move to another operating system that is deploying the same technology. At least from that point I’ll be able to see the changes the new system is making.

I think it's quite clear that I'm not blindly accepting whatever upstream decides to do. I've recognized where patches are appropriate and I've mentioned why I prefer to keep things as clean as possible. Seems to be quite obvious.

Lastly, the post isn't about the security of users on the system. Not at all. The post is about if Debian is patching default behavior or not. I know how to restrict users from installing cron jobs, and many other aspects of the system.

So, maybe you should read the entire post before commenting.

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By: mok0 https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110605 Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:05:27 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110605 I actually don't agree with you that accepting the utility authors' choice of default behaviour is by definition a good thing.

The purpose of an operation system -- or distribution if you like -- is to provide a uniform and tested environment, and it is the privilege of the developers to define how the individual components should be configured to be consistent with the philosophy they've chosen.

So, if that philosophy is that you need to do something special to restrict users from doing something, then you configure the utilities to work like that, if not, you do the opposite. It depends on what character you want for the OS.

In the case of cron, I personally don't think it's much of a security risk, so I prefer the Debian/Ubuntu way of doing things. I generally do.

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By: Eugene Belford https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110600 Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:34:06 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110600 Thanks. I'm going to link to this whenever people try and tell me that Red Hat is the one with standard behavior.

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By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110599 Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:23:38 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110599 @Watts Well, most of the Mac OS X tools come out of FreeBSD, and many Apple developers are paid to develop FreeBSD directly, so the fact that Vixie cron is installed and functioning, doesn't surprise me. However, I am aware of launchd replacing System V Init just as Upstart has done the same. My point was just that the functionality of cron exists in launchd, and launchd can execute scripts and events on timed intervals or at specific times.

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By: Watts https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110598 Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:27:12 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110598 Mac OS X's launchd is really a replacement for the /etc/init.d bootup files -- it's described as a "System-wide and per-use daemon/agent manager." The crontab man page contains an admonition that "Although cron(8) and crontab(5) are officially supported under Darwin, their functionality has been absorbed into launchd(8)." (Launchd is described as "a more flexible way of automatically executing commands"; while I suspect that's technically true, XML property lists give me hives.)

Beyond that, it's using Vixie Cron and it has the identical paragraph about cron.allow/cron.deny that Debian does ("If neither of these files exist, then depending on site-dependent configuration parameters, only the super user will be allowed to use this command, or all users will be able to use this command").

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By: LaserJock https://pthree.org/2010/01/04/does-debian-deviate-from-standards-or-upstream/#comment-110596 Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:19:28 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1224#comment-110596 I remember something like this when I first moved from Red Hat/Fedora to Debian. As a scientist I use gnuplot quite a bit. In Red Hat/Fedora gnuplot is compiled with readline support. In Debian it's not because of license incompatibilities. Red Hat/Fedora was more useful because I got the nice readline support, after I read up on the issue it seemed kinda "not good" for them to totally ignore the licensing issue.

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