Comments on: Strong Passwords NEED Entropy https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/ Linux. GNU. Freedom. Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:53:18 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0-alpha-43320 By: Aaron Toponce https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-126783 Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:21:49 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-126783 Read the post. In there is an equation that calculates the binary bits a message contains, if the message is truly random.

]]>
By: lem https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-126768 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:12:52 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-126768 Hi, I'm quite a noob in all that stuff but I found your article very interesting and relevant compared to other articles that says all the things you say they're not right.
But I wonder, how do you know that a given password is x binary bits ?
I enjoy doing some petty programming and I'd like it very much if I could do my own password checker...
Would you enlight me, please ?
Bests regards,
lem.

]]>
By: Aaron Toponce https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-116862 Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:28:50 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-116862 So, what are you disagreeing on? I'm not following. As mentioned in the article, length will give you more entropy for the cost, than fancy-pants uppercase, lowercase, numbers, symbols stuff. It's not say that they aren't important. They are. Very much. But, when it comes right down to it, attackers are looking for a needle in a haystack. They don't know the length of your password, and they don't now what sort of character sets you're using. All they likely have, is a SHA1 hash of your password and maybe the salt. They likely don't know anything else. Your password could be 1200 characters, it could be 12. It could be all lowercase, it could be some random leetspeak. Regardless, your needle is in a haystack. So the question remains: how large is the haystack they are looking through?

]]>
By: Justin https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-116861 Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:05:26 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-116861 Thanks for the article. I know it's old but I found it interesting. At the same time I have to disagree. You said it yourself:

"what gives you more entropy per bit- length or possible characters? If you passed college algebra, you would know that the answer is length, not total possible characters"

The only factor that really matters is the length of the password/phrase. This is because the cracker has no idea how much entropy is actually in the password, only the bit length. In order to crack it they have to assume maximum entropy and still try every possible combination within the bit length.

So, yes, entropy is important mathematically, but since the cracker is dealing with an unknown variable they have to assume the worst.

]]>
By: Aaron Toponce : Another Reminder About Passwords https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-116584 Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:52:08 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-116584 [...] you find the needle? Of course, the larger the haystack, the harder it will be to find the needle. I have also blogged about this in the past. Thankfully, Gibson Research Corporation has put together a web application that uses this analogy. [...]

]]>
By: Pequeño estudio de las contraseñas de las cuentas de Twitter «hackeadas», o por qué tu contraseña es una caca https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-116548 Thu, 10 May 2012 19:07:10 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-116548 [...] Si no sabes de qué estoy hablando pero te interesa el tema, intenta leer algo sobre entropía en las contraseñas. Algo como la entropía como una medida de la robustez de las contraseñas, o las passwords robustas NECESITAN entropía. [...]

]]>
By: Password Entropy https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115796 Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:47:10 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115796 [...] a password with 40 bits of entropy will create a hash with 40 bits of entropy if it is unsalted. This is the only source I could find where it was stated as fact. Is this correct? Thank [...]

[WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The comment's server IP (74.86.156.59) doesn't match the comment's URL host IP (75.126.162.205) and so is spam.

]]>
By: What Really Makes a Password Strong? | Ian Dunn, Seattle web developer https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115767 Tue, 17 May 2011 23:21:47 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115767 [...] of the following rules to achieve the desired level of entropy, which at current standards is a minimum of 72 bits. That’s assuming that everything in the phrase is truly random, though. In reality there are [...]

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115579 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:49:32 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115579 @Random832- I am using entropy correctly. It's a definition, and nothing more. Check out the Wikipedia article. It's the maximum number of states that a system can be in. It is an upper bound. This is discussed in the post. And yes, passwords are just a subset of the ASCII set of characters, however, if you know a site restricts length or type of characters, then you have your starting point. Again, entropy is nothing more than a definition.

Also, the password card has an infinite searchable keyspace. I don't understand why people don't get this. Your password can be of infinite length and take any infinite amount of turns or directions. Sure, it has a subset of the the full ASCII set, so the possible number of characters is smaller, but as discussed in the post, it's length that gets you entropy, not the total number of characters. Length is key, and length is in the card.

]]>
By: Random832 https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115578 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:19:09 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115578 If you're going to fault them for not mentioning word "entropy" [while still hitting most of the other key points], you ought to use it correctly yourself. What you're describing isn't entropy, it's a simpler keyspace-size concept [which is probably the upper bound of entropy]. In other words, you don't really address why "password" has less entropy just because it only contains lowercase letters. I mean, lowercase letters are letters, they are alphanumeric, and they are ASCII. Isn't that just "a good starting point in the search space"? On the other hand, it only _actually_ contains seven different characters, so why isn't it 8*log_2(7)? And anyway, log_2(`wc -l /usr/share/dict/words`) is probably a better answer anyway.

Entropy is basically nothing _but_ an approximate measurement of how much [well, how little] a password is "a good starting point in the search space" - the "search space" here consisting of all possible strings from the empty string to a string 9999 characters long (or whatever your system limit is). And "password" probably doesn't have 38 bits to begin with even ignoring it being a common first guess - english text only averages a little under three bits per letter, not the almost five implied by log_2(26). Which means that passphrases comprising intelligible sentences have to be a LOT longer than randomly generated passwords to have the same entropy.

And the keyspace size for your card gets to be a lot less if someone gets your card (I hope that's not your real card) - your method is basically a dictionary-word password relying on a dictionary no-one else has.

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115546 Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:15:57 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115546 I have various computers that I access. My personal laptop is running Debian Sid, which I'm using now. I have a Fedora 14 virtual machine, which I use at work that has Chrome 11.

]]>
By: Blimundus https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115539 Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:53:00 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115539 "What happens if you lose your phone, only to find that you don’t have a backup?" > Dropbox syncs the passwords file with my computer, and I have daily/weekly/monthly incremental backups from my computer to an external harddisk.

"What happens when the developer of the software stops pushing updates?" > KeePassX is in the Debian repositories, and as long as it is in there, I can read my password file. If development on KeePassDroid stops, I may not be able to continue to use this password management system on my phone, and I will look for alternatives. If Dropbox stops, I can easily find another file syncing solution.

"What happens when you are at your friend’s computer, and your phone battery is dead?" > friend's computer = power source. Now I just need to find a standard mini USB adapter and I can power my phone.

"So, congratulations on actually doing something about your security. Well done." > Thanks! I'm glad I finally took action. Almost as good as when I finally started doing backups... (I admit I still have to test recovering data from the backup... it worked on day one though).

By the way, quite the jump from Chrome 9 to Chrome 11. I know, I am sending this from Internet Explorer 8.0... Our office pc's all run Citrix, and the applications run in some off-site datacenter. We actuall switched from IE 6.0 to IE 8.0 only a couple of months ago. That was a great day: I could finally use tabs! :-s

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115533 Thu, 10 Mar 2011 00:19:46 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115533 Who said you have a finite number of lengths? I look at the card, I can find a password with 1,000,000 characters. Practical, no, but finite? Heh. You have an infinite number of characters in your password from the card, even if they repeat. You also have an infinite number of paths to take from an infinite combination of choices.

]]>
By: Duane Storey https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115532 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:26:23 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115532 Isn't the entropy of the password card significantly less than the entropy of the passwords on it? I mean, you have a finite number of starting positions and a finite number of lengths. Aren't you essentially defeating the purpose of using a high entropy password by having the data on a card?

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115530 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:33:22 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115530 Yes, there is an encrypted version of the site, but I won't link to it, mainly due to the fact that I don't want to add additional stress to his server. If you are that concerned about the image going over the wire in "plain text", then as you noticed, you can clearly go secure yourself. If the developer wasn't concerned about HTTPS adding strain on his server, then I would gather that it would be default.

]]>
By: Heinjan https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115528 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:16:50 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115528 Time to rethink my password strategy!

I see the passwordcard site also has an encrypted site. Maybe a good idea to change the link to the https-version?

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115526 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:47:48 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115526 @Nicolai Hähnle: I'm not misleading anyone. Entropy is merely a measurement of size, not security. It's a definition, and that's it. I only mention the security of the sheer size of various entropies. However, what I've mentioned here isn't the End All of entropy. Not by a long shot. Sure, you can measure the security of a password based on the seed used to build the random arrangement of characters, but that has nothing to do with entropy, other than after you have your string, it belongs to a certain entropy pool.

Calling my post dangerous is just draconian.

]]>
By: Nicolai Hähnle https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115522 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:58:13 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115522 Your explanation of entropy is seriously lacking. In particular, the formula L log N only applies if all characters are chosen independently and uniformly at random. Clearly, the claim that the password "password" is highly misleading, and when it comes to security, misleading equals dangerous. (Technically, the claim that any fixed sequence has interesting entropy is problematic.)

The point is that good passwords are chosen randomly. Great suggestion with the password card, by the way!

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115521 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:46:22 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115521 Yes. You'll notice that in Information Theory, message entropy grows at the same rate, except where Boltzmann's constant is found, we find the variable L for the length of the message. But yes, entropy does indeed grow logarithmically.

]]>
By: Password safety « YANNB – yet another not needed blog https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115519 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 09:49:56 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115519 [...] post about password safety and [...]

]]>
By: Matthias https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115517 Wed, 09 Mar 2011 08:42:55 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115517 Quote: "Assuming that 4 ping pong balls will fit in 1 cup, and order is not important, you can arrange the ping pong balls 12 different ways: {4,0,0},{3,1,0},{3,0,1},{2,2,0},{2,0,2},{2,1,1},{1,1,2},{1,2,1},{1,3,0},{1,0,3},{0,4,0},{0,0,4} So, this system has an entropy of 12."

The entropy of a system in which all states, of number N, are equally likely, is given by S = kB log(N), where kB is the Boltzmann constant (see classical statistical physics). Most importantly, it grows logarithmically in N, not linearly.

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115510 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 19:06:45 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115510 @Blimundus- I still contend that software-based password storage solutions are not optimal. In your case, you have your DB on your phone. What happens if you lose your phone, only to find that you don't have a backup? What happens when the developer of the software stops pushing updates? What happens when you are at your friend's computer, and your phone battery is dead?

Too many "what ifs" prevent me from using anything that relies on power, synchronization or other forms of computing technology. The card is perfect, because it's stored in plain text right on the card, yet if an attacker gets your card, he has to know where the password starts, it's length, and the path it takes. The combination of these variables produce an infinite amount of combinations, making it infeasible to attack your account.

And, if you lose your card, hopefully you wrote down the number that generated your card, so you can go back to the page, type in your number, and reprint your card. To me, it's a nobrainer. No Dropbox. No phone. No synchronization mess. Just me and my wallet, which is probably the most tracked possession I own, outside of my kids.

Don't take me wrong. I'm glad KeePass and Dropbox work for you. I personally just want to be as platform-independent as possible, and the password card allows me to do this.

Further, I'm glad you evaluated your current password situation, and decided to do something about it. Too many people, I fear, don't bother reading the article, or if they do read it, don't do anything about it. As a result, we will continue to see hacked Gmail and Facebook accounts. So, congratulations on actually doing something about your security. Well done.

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115509 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:55:02 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115509 @Jason- Now I'm not sure if we're both arguing the same point, or not. So, let's start over.

If I don't have access to the shadow file, which means I don't have access to the hash (and the salt, if any), then I have a few options to get at the password- brute force, SQL injection, buffer overflows, keyboard loggers, and other means of attacking a server to reveal the information I'm after. However, because we're discussing the strength of a password based on the entropy, let's look just a brute forcing. I have at least three clear methods of attack:

1. I can increment through the letters, numbers and punctuation, starting with the shortest word and working my way to the longest.
2. I can use a dictionary attack.
3. I can exhaust entropy bit spaces.

Let's look at option 2. This seems to be an appropriate means of attack, as passwords are generally based on some sort of dictionary word, whether they just append numbers at the end (or prepend at the beginning, or both), they use "leet speak", or they just plain don't care that much. At any event, exhausting massive dictionaries seems like a good use of time.

But what happens when all of our dictionaries are exhausted, and we still haven't gotten to the password? We could take the route of option 1, and increment until the cows come home, or use option 3, and start exhausting entropies.

I think it would be clear that option 1 would take far too long. Maybe I'll luck out, and the password is 'aaaa', but probably not. It could be something like "l33th4x0r", which has 46 bits of entropy. Of course, on a single-purpose computer, it's reasonable for me to exhaust everything up through 40 or maybe even 48 bits of entropy. Because his password is in that search space, I can get at it quickly. But, what if the password had 80 bits of entropy? Even with a distributed attack on the password, it would be infeasible to find the password in such a large search space. We haven't even talked hashing the password. We are just brute forcing the account, hoping to find a match.

So, let's look at the hash then. It could be hashed with something weak like MD5 or it could be a salted and iterated hash with SHA512. Either way, if I have access to the hash, I likely also have access to the salt, so I've just reduced my search to the length of the hash itself. BUT! I am NOT breaking SHA1 or whatever hashed the password! I'm breaking the password itself. I'm not interested in the entropy SHA1 provides to any message. I'm only interested in the message that produced that hash.

Again, I'm going to start using a dictionary attack or exhaust entropies until I find a word that hashes to the same value as what I have found. Of course, if I have the hash, I don't need brute force. I could use Rainbow Tables, birthday attacks, and a number of other methods at getting at the password. Brute force should be my last option after all previous, and more effective attacks, have failed.

Regardless of the attack method used, the more entropy you have in the pasword, the longer it is going to take to break. Point blank. Whether it's iteration, dictionary attacks or exhausting entropy. The more entropy you have in your password, the stronger your password is. There's just no way around it.

]]>
By: Eric https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115508 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:29:25 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115508 Fantastic article. Thank you for writing it.

]]>
By: Ahmed Kamal https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115507 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 15:46:11 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115507 wow, this is seriously interesting. Thanks Aaron for the info

]]>
By: Blimundus https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115506 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 14:01:03 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115506 My password system until today:

- commit everything to memory;
- low entropy;
- a lot of different passwords, but I still re-used some of the passwords;
- I sometimes mistakenly try to log into website X using password Y... if X keeps logs of passwords used during failed login attempts, they have a wealth of information that can be used to log into Y etc;
- almost never change passwords;
- plain text list of passwords stored on my computer;
- etc...

Reading the recent HGBary scandal, today's Ars piece, your post here, and your earlier post on the password cards, and a lot of comments, I just completely changed how I do passwords:

- KeePass;
- high entropy (every possible character except for spaces and up to 12 characters long).

I still need to work on a better master password, but at least I now have the infrastructure in place 😉

In a comment to your earlier post, you wrote:

"The problem with KeePass is its lack of perfect portability. While it can install on any of the major operating systems, it requires that you have access to the software. Inevitably, you are going to access your parent’s computer, the computer at the library, school, or some other public establishment, and you might not have permission to install KeePass to get access to your DB (provided you can). If you NEVER touch another computer, this issue is moot. If you do, it can be a headache, if your passwords are actually strong (read: at least 72bits of entropy)."

I don't think portability is much of a problem if I store my database on dropbox, and if I always have my KeePassDroid enabled phone with me... I often forget to take my wallet (which, I admit, is stupid), but I never forget to take my phone!

(I will have to read your post again to understand all of the math... Yes, IAAL.)

]]>
By: Jason https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115505 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 13:59:10 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115505 yes, I meant salting.

I don't get it.

You can attack via 2 vectors, either get all (or a substantial amount) of the stored passwords and attempt to decrypt them, or the 2nd vector, brute force a single password.

The first vector (decrypt a whole host of passwords) the entropy of the individual passwords is immaterial since decryption is set by the entropy of the salting.

The second vector (brute force) the entropy is nowhere near as important as hard to guess, reason being, most systems introduce at the very least delays into a brute force attack, so much so, that the artificial delays introduced far outweight the time taken to guess the next possible password.

So, in the real world, other factors seem to be far more important than the entropy of the password. The only time I see the entropy of the password being the important factor is when the system you use the password on being extremely poor with its security anyway.

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115504 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 13:31:36 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115504 Hashing your password doesn't add entropy to the password. If your password is 80-bits worth of entropy, and you hash it with SHA1, it's still only worth 80-bits of entropy. If you're talking about breaking the salted hash in /etc/shadow directly, then you're breaking a message with 160-bits of entropy. BUT, you're attacking the hash, not the password. This is why password cracking utilities, such as John the Ripper, use dictionaries to get to the password. It's much easier to search a total space of 80-bits than 160. Take a password, hash it, and compare it to the stored hash. You're attacking the password, not its hash.

Also, I made very clear in the post how long it takes to break 72-bits worth of entropy, as well as 64 and 56 given a sufficient attack. Entropy matters a great deal. There are more algorithms than brute force for getting at a password, you can count on that. So, take the post for what you will, but if your password doesn't have a sufficient amount of entropy, don't come crying to me when your account gets compromised.

]]>
By: Jason https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115503 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 12:59:46 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115503 I thought that passwords (particularly in *nux scenarios) where hashed in such a way as to give them all (on any given system) the same entropy...

But now I come to think about it, that just mitigates against decryption of the stored password, not the the time it would take to brute force guess your password. But if we are talking the time to brute force guess your password then we must take into account how long it takes process all the possible passwords (i.e. how long the computer/system being attacked takes, and what delay is introduced to deliberately stop or slow down brute force attacks).

Basically, so long as your password is not easily guessable, I don't see that the entropy of the password matters that much, its the entropy of encrypted stored form that matters, and for the most part that is outside the hands of the person using the password.

]]>
By: Aaron https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115501 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 05:00:03 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115501 The entropy has nothing to do with the simplicity of the password, only the length and the characters that it uses. If a password is easy to guess, that just means that there is a good starting point in the search space. But, in your example, the search space would still be 101-bits.

]]>
By: Stephen Smoogen https://pthree.org/2011/03/07/strong-passwords-need-entropy/#comment-115500 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 04:21:12 +0000 http://pthree.org/?p=1761#comment-115500 Very very nice article. Do you know a way to calculate lack of entropy when people use easily guessable terms? I know people who use 17 character passwords but they end up being something like BobGeorgeSmith123 where you can just take the words, capitalize them, and then add a number to the end. So it looks good, but if you knew the persons father was Bob George Smith its entropy is a lot smaller (though not 1). Or is this not really easy to calculate?

]]>